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Set up advice for a small timer

GuiTuber

GuiTuber

Feb 19, 2015
381
494
67
San Antonio, TX
#1
I'm part of a 5-man acoustic group; 2 guitars, myself on bass, a harp player and a percussionist playing djembes and congas. Here's a link to a page on our website that shows the members and what they play (I'm the first Brother Rob and I have switched to bass since the other Brother Rob joined): Papa Nick's Music - The Family

We have only had one gig, playing every Friday night at a burrito/taco restaurant. Normally, we play on the patio but in these colder months, we've played inside, unplugged (except me, I'm using my Rumble 40).

Here's the patio:
habs_patio.jpg


As you can see, not very big.

Our set up has been loud enough on the patio. When it used to just be me and the BL on guitar, the mix wasn't bad, though we struggled with whether it was too bright or not. When I moved to bass, I only had my acoustic bass with no amp so I went directly in to the mixer. That's when things started to sound a little mucked up.

Here is our current set up:
  • Mixer: Yamaha MG124CX, 12-input
  • PA amp/mixer: Phonic Powerpod 410 mixer with 100-watt amp
  • Speakers: Phonic S710, 10" 2-way
  • One guitar is a Taylor, plugged directly in to the Yamaha mixer.
  • The BL has an HPL Martin and he goes to the Phonic mixer from his pedal board.
  • I will have a Squier VM Jazz with my Rumble 40.
  • The percussionist has a a couple of mics that go through the Yamaha mixer.
  • The harp player goes in to the Phonic mixer.
  • Everyone has a vocal mic.
Here's where I need some advice. Considering all this information:
  1. Can I get away with the 40w amp?
  2. Would adding a preamp to the 40w amp be better?
  3. Should I upgrade the amp? And if so, to what?
We're looking for other gigs but they would likely be something similar to this place, inside or outside. This is pretty small so something bigger is more likely, but nothing huge.

Hopefully I haven't left anything out. I thought it best to provide as much information as I could otherwise, everyone is making assumptions and the advice could end up being all over the board.
 
#2
Assuming you don't foresee playing anything louder than what your doing, you probably have enough amplification, but...

I don't think I've ever played the Rumble 40, but practice amps of that size often sound pretty bad. They'll get the sound out, but at the cost of quality. Usually it's the speaker that is as much of the problem as the amp, but the whole package struggles. When you find a better amp, I expect you'll kick yourself for taking so long to pick one up.

Never, ever run your bass through that PA :). You should probably see if there's some sort of high pass filter at each channel or put one before the amp to prevent lows from getting to the speaker.

If you're going to play a gig where a full pa with sub is available, that is the best place for a preamp, unless you want the preamp for use with your regular amp.

Lots to say on the topic, only so much time.
 
#3
Upgrade to a Rumble or other amp of at least 100w.
Headroom. It's all about the headroom.
It's nice to have more power than actually needed.
You can always turn it down.
There are lots of smaller (physically) amps that have that kind of power.
 
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#4
cheapbasslovin said:
Assuming you don't foresee playing anything louder than what your doing, you probably have enough amplification, but...

Lots to say on the topic, only so much time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, nonetheless.

The Rumble 40 is actually pretty decent for it's size. I like to engage the "vintage" switch and I keep the EQ flat on both the amp and my acoustic bass and it gives me the mellow bass tone that I love. When we've played unplugged ('cept me of course), I only have the volume about 9-10 o'clock on the amp and about 30% on the bass.

Given the advice I've gotten so far from the other thread, I won't be going through our PA. I'll talk to our BL about his rig and to the other guitarist to see if he has anything, as far as the high-pass filter is concerned.

I was talking to our BL last night and he has a desire to upgrade the PA, which would be nice. If he did, however, then I'd really need to upgrade my amp. Which brings up a question, if we got a system with subs, does that mean I could go through the PA?
 
#6
tangentmusic said:
By the way, GuiTuber, how are their tacos?
Click to expand...

Awesome. The burritos are better. You get to pick what you want to go in them, from meats, rice, beans, veggies, cheeses, etc. Then they roll it in such a way that while you're eating it, nothing comes out the other end. Literally the cleanest burrito you'll ever eat.

They do incredible business at their other location, but the one we've been playing at, very sparse. It's a bad location. Having said that, since we've been playing inside (because of the cold weather), the last 3-4 weeks have gotten busier and busier. Maybe it's us, maybe it's a coincidence. But when people have come in, the majority have stayed after they finished eating.

Unfortunately, they changed managers (again) and they don't want us to play there anymore. The new manager just doesn't want entertainment. He was hired to turn the business around. It's understandable. But after 3-4 managers since we've been there, somebody is not accepting the fact that it's a horrible location.
 
#8
Hi Rob,

In a venue like this with the instrumentation you have, I would say that 40W of clean power should be sufficient. However, even here I would want up to a 200W amp. Why, you ask? There are three reasons for this:

1: In the majority of cases, a 200W amp will have two speaker sockets and will only deliver the full 200W into a 4Ohm load - this normally (but not always) means two speaker cabinets. In a venue of this size, two cabs would probably be over the top, so my 200W amp is suddenly a 100W amp. The same goes for most combos.

2: With the instrumentation you say you have, you are not a metal/grunge band, right? I cannot speak for you, but if I was in that type of band (in fact I am just getting going with such right now) I would generally be looking for clean bass sounds. That means plenty of headroom in the amp. Your 40W combo is going to start sounding pretty bad if you are asking for the full beans just to get the volume you need. In fact, very few amp deliver clean power beyond 3/4 volume - all you add is distortion, not volume. So suddenly my 100W amp cannot be run at more that 3/4 volume, which is, allowing for inefficiencies, equivalent to between 1/4 and 1/3 of the power - 1/3 of 100 W = 30W.

3: You are outdoors, at least in part. Much of your sound will be going straight through to the car park.

None of this is based on any hard or fast rules, just my experience. I know this is probably not what you wanted to hear, and as always it is just my humble opinion with which others will no doubt disagree, but there you have it.

All the best...Steve
 
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#10
For setting up PA, I strongly recommend looking at the forums over at Billfitzmaurice.com. Most of the conversation is about speaker building and subs (BFM community looooooves their subs), but they have quite a lot of talk about equipment, eq, and putting it all together to get a competent sound. I learned a ton there.
 
#11
GuiTuber said:
Interesting take on it, Steve. I appreciate the response.

The more information the better. At this stage, I'd rather sort through too much info than make a decision based on insufficient info.
Click to expand...
If you want pro advice, head over to the pro sound forum LAB (Live Audio Board) "Lounge".. forum.. designed for weekend warriors, beginners and small SR folks...

You will get sage advice. Their motto of buy once, cry once is very prevalent so you won't always get the cheapest solution, but they ARE very knowledgeable and helpful.
LAB Lounge
 
#12
If you guys ever want to play for anything besides free tacos you need to upgrade your PA. The Yamaha mixer is OK but the rest of it sucks bad. If I was you unless someone is going to buy some decent PA gear I would upgrade your bass amp to something around 300 watts.
 
#14
modulusman said:
If you guys ever want to play for anything besides free tacos you need to upgrade your PA. The Yamaha mixer is OK but the rest of it sucks bad. If I was you unless someone is going to buy some decent PA gear I would upgrade your bass amp to something around 300 watts.
Click to expand...

There is some interest in upgrading the PA. I don't have anything to contribute other than my own gear so we'll have to see how much of a budget there will be among the other fellas.

As for my amp, the best I'm going to be able to do is 100w. If I have to go that route, I can exchange the Rumble 40 for the 100 and make up the difference with the sale of another little amp that was gifted to me a week or two before I got the Rumble. It's a Hartke HD25. We apparently have a secret admirer that wants to invest in our group. The BL knows who it is but they want to remain anonymous. The amp retails for $130 and I have it on Craigslist for $100, although, no nibbles yet. Sam Ash is have a "sell or trade-up" event but I'd imagine I'd only get about $50 for the Hartke if I went that route. I'd put it in the classifieds here but I have to be a paying member. Other than that, I have already spent my budget from our tax return so there is no extra scratch to work with.

If anyone is interested in the Hartke, or knows someone who might be, shoot me a PM. It's only been plugged in like three times. I've had it for about a month.
 
#15
Dear fellow Texan:): FWIW, my smallest rig is an Ampeg BA-115 combo (100 watts into a 15). It (or something comparable) is the smallest rig I would consider for any gig - no matter how few pieces or how tiny the venue. A quality PA- even if it's a small one- will make a huge difference in how you sound and even how you play.
 
#16
Chris 'Wighat' Jordan said:
Dear fellow Texan:): FWIW, my smallest rig is an Ampeg BA-115 combo (100 watts into a 15). It (or something comparable) is the smallest rig I would consider for any gig - no matter how few pieces or how tiny the venue. A quality PA- even if it's a small one- will make a huge difference in how you sound and even how you play.
Click to expand...
I agree. The OP isn't thinking long term IMO. A 40 watt amp isn't enough to gig with unless you have a couple grand minimum in PA gear. In the short term it might work with his current band but if he ever joins a band with amplified guitars and a real drum set he will be screwed.
 
#17
Chris 'Wighat' Jordan said:
Dear fellow Texan:): FWIW, my smallest rig is an Ampeg BA-115 combo (100 watts into a 15). It (or something comparable) is the smallest rig I would consider for any gig - no matter how few pieces or how tiny the venue. A quality PA- even if it's a small one- will make a huge difference in how you sound and even how you play.
Click to expand...

modulusman said:
I agree. The OP isn't thinking long term IMO. A 40 watt amp isn't enough to gig with unless you have a couple grand minimum in PA gear. In the short term it might work with his current band but if he ever joins a band with amplified guitars and a real drum set he will be screwed.
Click to expand...

You guys are right. The more I've thought about it, I need to upgrade. I'm still constrained by my budget so the best I could do is something in the 100w range, i.e. $300. The Ampeg BA115V2 is 150w and is only $329. That's doable, budget-wise, after exchanging the Rumble 40 (which was $200).

When I bought the 40 a couple of weeks ago, I didn't know then what I know now. Plus, I was trying to take advantage of Sam Ash's President's Day $100 discount so I didn't have the luxury of time. And, I only had a $500 budget for the bass, case and amp.

I knew the 40w amp wasn't going to be gig-worthy on it's own, but with the line out, I figured I'd be going through the PA. As I gained knowledge, through the fine folks here at TB, I now know that the PA is not an option, leaving the amp to stand on it's own. It likely would have stood up to our 100w PA, but it would have left me with very little, if any, wiggle room when it came to venues. And then there's modulusman's point about working with another band. Unless there was a PA I could plug in to, I would be a man without a country.

So, The Ampeg it is and I'll just have to see how far that takes me until I can upgrade again somewhere down the line.
 
#18
Well, after a talk with the boss, and I'm not talking about the BL ;), I've modified my approach.

If I'm going to commit the funds, I need to buy a commitment. After all the advice, which I have appreciated, I need to stop thinking in terms of what I can get by with, but rather what I need to fulfill the commitment of wanting to be a gigging bass player, which would also satisfy any requirements of my current band.

To that end, I'm looking at the higher end options in the Rumble series. I love the tone options, even with the 40, so I have no reasonable doubt to think I would be disappointed with anything in the higher end. So here's what I'm looking at:

  1. The 200w combo: 15" ($400)
  2. The 500w combo: 2x10" ($550)
  3. The 200w head with 2x10" cabinet ($650)

If I'm going to commit, I need to think long term, as was said by modulusman. Each of these options can handle extra cabinets. Obviously, 500w would be better than 200w, so at the risk of sounding like I'm trying to see what I can get by with, does adding an extra cabinet make you any louder, even though you're still at the same power output?

#1 is my first choice, especially budget-wise. I can probably swing #2 but if a second cabinet down the line can extend the usable life of #1, then why not put off the extra expense until it's needed. #3 seems silly, but I don't know if having 2 10's is better than 1 15, which would be the only justification for the added expense.
 
#19
#20
modulusman said:
I can't be of any help on which fender combo to get since I haven't used one. Just wondering if you looked at any other brands. Maybe a Peavey max series Invalid Link Removed or My local store has sold a bunch of these. TC Electronic BG250-112 250W 1x12 Bass Combo Amp with 2 TonePrint Slots Black | Musician's Friend I have heard the TC electronics in the music store and it gets pretty loud. No experience with the Peavey.
Click to expand...

I would want to try those out first, obviously. Both are cheaper than the Rumble 200 and have more power, but neither of them have a jack for an external cabinet. That was part of my long term thinking.
 

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