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Double Bass Setting the Sound for an Upright Bass?

1. Preamp — there are many options.

2. High Pass Filter — it’s a must for using piezos on DB (also many options)

3. EQ out the offending frequencies by playing around with your equalizer band. Usually the culprits are in the midrange band.

3. Consider another amp/cabinet combination. I used a Hartke-type cabinet with an old Fender Bassman early on in my foray into DB and I couldn’t get it to stop feeding back. Those aluminum cone speakers don’t seem to like DB frequencies IMO.
 
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Thanks for the response. I'm not cranking the amp I have it set at 2. Problem is it has wicked feedback. I was wondering how to set the EQ. I know all my problems are within my EQ settings, but finding where to start to set them is proving to be a task. Where should I set the sliders?

Conceptually you need to consider the bass, pickup, amp, and speaker to be one instrument. Each component has an impact on the resultant sound, and there is a feedback loop that travels through all components. The more volume you need, the stronger the feedback loop will become. The feedback loop accentuates any resonances in the frequency response of the system and makes them stand out. Corrective EQ is intended to reduce the amount of energy that occurs at resonance points. This prevents feedback and can also even out the frequency response if you do it right.

The problem is not within your EQ settings. Most likely the EQ on your amp is not flexible enough to deal with the problem. Tone controls tend to have a fixed frequency center and they impact a wide range of frequencies. In order to control the feedback you need either a parametric EQ that can be dialed to a specific frequency with a very narrow notch, or you can use actual notch filters.

Often a preamp designed for acoustic instruments will have one notch filter. In my experience you benefit from 4-5 notch filters.

Although recently discontinued, the Empress ParaEQ would be a good choice for a utility EQ in a pedal format. The ParaEQ would be considered semiparametric because bandwidth is not continuously variable. Instead you have a toggle for each band that allows you to select narrow, medium, or wide bandwidth filters. The ParaEQ also has a 1 meg ohm input impedance, which is pretty much the minimum you want with a piezo.

A 31-band graphic EQ can also be used. The frequency centers are fixed, but the bandwidth is relatively narrow as each band cover approximately 1/3 octave. Essentially you identify the problem frequencies and dip the closest band. Sometimes the problem is almost dead center between two bands, so you dip both bands.

You can try dialing out problem frequencies with the EQ on your Hartke, but the filters are a bit too wide (approximately one octave) to do it well. Here is the process. Turn the gain up until you are just on the verge of feedback and notice any tones that pop out. If you can identify the tone, this is the first frequency to dip. If not, reduce the overall gain slightly.

Now, starting with the bottom fader on your graphic EQ, slowly bring the fader up to see if it causes feedback. You need to use judgement rather than simply applying a cut to all faders that produce feedback. So at this point you are just assessing what's going on. Run the fader as high as it will go without feedback and then set it back to 0. Now do the same thing with the next higher fader. After you have checked two faders make a decision on whether you should apply a cut or not. Actually the first time you do this, go through all of the faders one at a time just to get a feel for it. It take experience and practice to use this process well.

With a 31-band graphic I use a very similar process. Instead of boosting one fader at a time I boost two adjacent faders. After I move the original two faders back to 0, I move up one fader (the top fader from the previous test). Boost two adjacent faders again, one that you have previously boosted and one new fader. After you have tested three adjacent faders you can judge if a cut is needed on the two lowest faders, and which fader the cut should occur on. Again, sometimes the feedback is midway between the faders and you dip both, but if the problem seems significantly closer to one fader, only dip one.

When you use a narrow notch, you can cut really deep and it will have very little impact on the overall sound. As you widen the bandwidth, you will generally need to use less and less cut because a wide, deep cut will gut your sound.

Also, all of the components in the system must work well together, and result will be limited by the worst component in the signal path. I don't have any idea what pickup that is, but it looks very cheap. If the pickup is not very good, you are unlikely to get a good sound.

Also, piezo pickups generally need to be plugged into an input impedance of 1 Meg ohm or higher. I believe the input impedance of your Hartke 7000 is only 100K ohms. If the input impedance is too low, it tends to cause a nastiness in the high mids and bass response may not reach as low as you want. You probably need some sort of buffer or preamp with a higher input impedance.
 
I've seen video's of players such as Willie Dixon and Lee Rocker play live. Willie - microphone. Lee - pickup. Can hear them great and they sound great

Yes, some bassists use mics, but they also have a skilled soundperson running the system (in addition to both the player and sound tech having years of learning how to incorporate a mic into a live stage setting and struggling with the same issues we all fight). My experience is if you don't have someone dedicated to run sound, mics are more trouble than a pickup. Also some players use a blended signal: a mic and a pickup of some sort combined to get the "better of both worlds", so what you see may not always be what you hear.

The best bet as others have said it to get a preamp with a High Pass filter and phase switch, those will make life much easier. I personally use and recommend the Fdeck HPF. It's inexpensive, simple, and is reliable. After the pre, then it becomes the ever changing dance of finding the sweet spot where feedback is under control with bass/speaker cabinet placement and EQ. On EQ, start flat and adjust for the room.

The last case option is a magnetic pickup like a Krivo or Schaller. Lots of the high volume guys go this route. They really don't sound as natural, but if you're in that high a volume situation you're probably just fighting to get heard and tone is a secondary concern.
 
To the OP, I'm guessing from your username that you're targeting rockabilly...

As long as you're considering other equipment, might also consider a different piezo that is more tuned to rockabilly needs. Vic's Pickups offer an excellent low-cost high-volume option. With a single bridge-wing Vic's pickup a pre-amp may not be required, but you will probably still find it advantageous to have one for tone control, etc.

And yes, as your volume goes up, you have to be extremely careful about feedback.

And yes, mics are far worse about feedback than piezos are, but if you want acoustic tone, they are a great option.
 
I think that many of the responses are missing the key point - a piezo pickup will not work well with an amp that has a low input impedance. You need a preamp, something like this - Fdeck preamp with hpf - hpftechllc - HPF-Pre, updated December 15, 2019 . It will increase the impedance to 10 MegOhms, which is more than adequate for any piezo double bass pickup. The Fdeck units are built and sold by a Talkbass member, and are highly regarded. You will not get the results that you are looking for by changing your eq settings on the amp.
 
... a piezo pickup will not work well with an amp that has a low input impedance. You need a preamp, something like this - Fdeck preamp with hpf - hpftechllc - HPF-Pre, updated December 15, 2019 . It will increase the impedance to 10 MegOhms, which is more than adequate for any piezo double bass pickup. The Fdeck units are built and sold by a Talkbass member, and are highly regarded. You will not get the results that you are looking for by changing your eq settings on the amp.

I think that you are 100% correct.


I think that many of the responses are missing the key point ...

...but I think that you didn't read many of the responses, because most of them say that.
 
I think that many of the responses are missing the key point - a piezo pickup will not work well with an amp that has a low input impedance. You need a preamp, something like this - Fdeck preamp with hpf - hpftechllc - HPF-Pre, updated December 15, 2019 . It will increase the impedance to 10 MegOhms, which is more than adequate for any piezo double bass pickup. The Fdeck units are built and sold by a Talkbass member, and are highly regarded. You will not get the results that you are looking for by changing your eq settings on the amp.

One more recommendation for the F Deck Pre. I think it will do the trick.
 
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I was a touring pro for over 20 years and the number of times I remember having feedback problems below 100hz is about twice. The feedback was not with my amp; it was between the bass and the PA subwoofers. On one occasion, the audio techs could not hear the feedback at FOH. One of the techs came up on stage and talked the other tech through dialing out the problem.

I am not saying an HPF is not desirable or that it will not improve the sound. But in my experience the ability to notch out feedback with multiple narrow filters is way more valuable. Also, in my experience upright basses are way more likely to feed back in the mids and low-mids than below 100hz.

One of the cabs I used was an Acme Low B2, which I believe has response of -6dB at 31hz. Never had any trouble with sub-bass feedback through the Low B2.
 
Hey R0ckabillyBass, my advice that I gave you earlier is so you can have fun right now. The truth of the matter is you don't quite have the right components to achieve your goal, plain and simple. Take these dudes advice cuz they're right and welcome to TalkBass!
 
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I'm not familiar with the pickup in the photo you posted... It's impossible to say from here, but it could be part of your problem...

I think very much the same. I´ve never seen a pickup like that and I wonder if it makes a proper fit. I´d try a more common pickup first, there was some advice here already.

A high impedance preamp will improve the sound, but it not that much gain before feedback. A notch filter can do that at high volumes, but you should be able to achieve a reasonable volume without any extras I´d say.
 
I was a touring pro for over 20 years and the number of times I remember having feedback problems below 100hz is about twice. The feedback was not with my amp; it was between the bass and the PA subwoofers. On one occasion, the audio techs could not hear the feedback at FOH. One of the techs came up on stage and talked the other tech through dialing out the problem.

I am not saying an HPF is not desirable or that it will not improve the sound. But in my experience the ability to notch out feedback with multiple narrow filters is way more valuable. Also, in my experience upright basses are way more likely to feed back in the mids and low-mids than below 100hz.

One of the cabs I used was an Acme Low B2, which I believe has response of -6dB at 31hz. Never had any trouble with sub-bass feedback through the Low B2.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough, I agree with you on where the feedback occurs frequency-wise. The issue that I have had with running a piezo pickup directly into a low-impedance amp like the OP’s Hartke is that the signal
Wasn't the inability to get high volumes out of an upright bass one of the main reasons for inventing the Precision Bass? Methinks you're using the wrong tool for the job.
Not so, I play in a loud NewGrass band and can handle it just fine with a Realist Lifeline + FDeck pre or (even better) a Krivo magnetic pickup.
 
Not so, I play in a loud NewGrass band and can handle it just fine with a Realist Lifeline + FDeck pre or (even better) a Krivo magnetic pickup.
Well, of course, if you're bound and determined you can make anything work. Ian Anderson played flute solos in a very loud rock band. But when I see the detailed recommendations on how to get an upright bass really loud without feedback and I compare them to "plug in bass guitar, turn on combo amp, play" I have to say that one seems a lot easier than the other. Now I do understand that in rockabilly there's a certain visual expectation of the bass, so that may be what you've got to do in that genre.
 
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Well, of course, if you're bound and determined you can make anything work. Ian Anderson played flute solos in a very loud rock band. But when I see the detailed recommendations on how to get an upright bass really loud without feedback and I compare them to "plug in bass guitar, turn on combo amp, play" I have to say that one seems a lot easier than the other. Now I do understand that in rockabilly there's a certain visual expectation of the bass, so that may be what you've got to do in that genre.
Appreciate your comments, but its not really that hard to accomplish "loud" with a URB. I play a P bass also so I have a good understanding of the sonic characteristics between the two. For m, its much more than the visual expectations - I can't replicate the note "bloom" that one can get from an URB with my P bass. I can get close with the right kind of fretless electric bass, but I greatly prefer playing the upright.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer playing URB at lower volumes, but when the situation calls for it I can do so, and its not that hard to accomplish or expensive.
 
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough, I agree with you on where the feedback occurs frequency-wise. The issue that I have had with running a piezo pickup directly into a low-impedance amp like the OP’s Hartke is that the signal
My response was not specific to you or I would have quoted you. Several of the responses seem to suggest that an HPF will stop all feedback problems and give perfect sound, and IMHO this is not accurate. An HPF can definitely help protect your speaker, give your rig extra headroom, and even make it sound better. But in my experience upright basses rarely feedback below the cutoff of an HPF.

I totally agree on the issue about the input impedance of the Hartke being to low, and addressed this matter twice in post #22.

The FDec is well respected and was made specifically for upright. As has been discussed, the FDec has a 10 Meg input impedance. Something that has not been discussed is the optimal loading of a piezo pickup varies in regards to the construction material and physical size of the piezo element. 1 Meg is about the lowest input impedance that is appropriate. For much of my life I was under the impression that 10 Meg was actually sort of the gold standard, but 10 meg is often well above the optimal impedance. I think on average, the optimal input impedance is probably somewhere between 2 and 5 meg ohms, and in some rare instances it's desirable to use up to 15-20 Meg. Again it depends design of the piezo and a bit too high is definitely better than way too low, so buying an FDeck will help with the impedance problem.

IMHO buying a utility EQ with narrow band filters is going to help with the OPs problem more than an HPF. The EQ I recommended (Empress ParaEQ) has an input impedance of 1 Meg which is probably a bit too low, but within the acceptable range. Unfortunately it's only possible to buy the ParaEQ on the used market, and it is currently selling above it's original (new) price.
 
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My response was not specific to you or I would have quoted you. Several of the responses seem to suggest that an HPF will stop all feedback problems and give perfect sound, and IMHO this is not accurate. An HPF can definitely help protect your speaker, give your rig extra headroom, and even make it sound better. But in my experience upright basses rarely feedback below the cutoff of an HPF.

I totally agree on the issue about the input impedance of the Hartke being to low, and addressed this matter twice in post #22.

The FDec is well respected and was made specifically for upright. As has been discussed, the FDec has a 10 Meg input impedance. Something that has not been discussed is the optimal loading of a piezo pickup varies in regards to the construction material and physical size of the piezo element. 1 Meg is about the lowest input impedance that is appropriate. For much of my life I was under the impression that 10 Meg was actually sort of the gold standard, but 10 meg is often well above the optimal impedance. I think on average, the optimal input impedance is probably somewhere between 2 and 5 meg ohms, and in some rare instances it's desirable to use up to 15-20 Meg. Again it depends design of the piezo and a bit too high is definitely better than way too low, so buying an FDeck will help with the impedance problem.

IMHO buying a utility EQ with narrow band filters is going to help with the OPs problem more than an HPF. The EQ I recommended (Empress ParaEQ) has an input impedance of 1 Meg which is probably a bit too low, but within the acceptable range. Unfortunately it's only possible to buy the ParaEQ on the used market, and it is currently selling above it's original (new) price.

@Wasnex sorry, my answer was a bit muddled! I agree 100% with you (I respect your deep knowledge of all things sound, well beyond my rudimentary level). My reason for the FDeck recommendation was more about it being an economical preamp designed specifically for DB, with a decent input impedance level (as you note); the fact that it is also an hpf is a bonus. I have and use one primarily as an impedance device, and occasionally need and use it for hpf. I agree with you that it is not a solve-all tool - when I need to use one, its more about sounding better at louder volumes vs helping with feedback. I've had more than one occasion of working with a sound crew that had to spend considerable time with eq settings to remove feedback. The OP may well need better shaping tools, but his first step is to address the impedance mismatch. Also, no one seems to be able to identify what type of pickup that is, and whether it is appropriate for the task - it could also be a "garbage in, garbage out" problem.