Sharing a pedalboard between two instrument-amp chains

[Estropijo]

I am looking for a way to share a few pedals between two signal chains and I am not sure if there is a solution that allows for this out there.

Hopefully this diagram is clear:

I have a bass and a guitar at home and I want to be able to share a pedalboard between them. That means being able to switch the pedals between the Bass-BassAmp and Guitar-GuitarAmp chains.

On top of that, sometimes I play both separately (e.g. looping) and sometimes at the same time (with my partner). In the first case I would like to mute the one I am not playing with, in the other case I want both active at the same time no matter which one has the FX loop. So a switcher that selects whether they are both connected or only the one with the FX loop would be ideal.

Does this exist? Or should I opt for a custom option? Sounds like a very simple circuit anyway.

 

[Switcharoo]

Depending on your level of investment, I just found out that the Gigrig G3 (and the G3 Atom) will do this... you can have two completely parallel paths and bring pedals between the two on a preset by preset basis!

 

[catcauphonic]

Check out Saturnworks Pedals - Shop. They do all kinds of utility stuff that works and looks great, and their pricing is decent, including custom stuff

 

[TheLowDown33]

Most top tier multi effects can do this. Helix, quad cortex, etc, all have multiple inputs and outputs and with some creative programming you can make it work. If you want to go the analogue route, this is what it will look like:

Granted, I have most things controlled via MIDI, but the Trilobite in the top left corner serves as a 3 instrument hub, 2 of which can share the pedals since they're all in the effects loop.

 

[Feral Feline]

Parallel chains sharing one FX loop. Very similar to what I'm trying to do, except my "guitar" is the signal from an octave-up pedal and I need both bass & Oct-up to share my SuperEGO...

I've been toying with using the GGG Translocator.

The Translocator and an extra splitter-blender with mutes may fill the bill...



Do you need to switch on the fly?



I was working out a way to switch the stuff in your diagram using a single rotary switch. You've got 4 "scenes"... but that won't work if you need to switch things up with your feet while your hands are busy playing...

 

[amper]

There are a zillion products on the market that can do this for you.

 

[RJ]

Well, conversation over then...

 

[Feral Feline]

There are a zillion products on the market that can do this for you.

So which one do you recommend?

 

[Estropijo]

Depending on your level of investment, I just found out that the Gigrig G3 (and the G3 Atom) will do this... you can have two completely parallel paths and bring pedals between the two on a preset by preset basis!

Most top tier multi effects can do this. Helix, quad cortex, etc, all have multiple inputs and outputs and with some creative programming you can make it work. If you want to go the analogue route, this is what it will look like:

Granted, I have most things controlled via MIDI, but the Trilobite in the top left corner serves as a 3 instrument hub, 2 of which can share the pedals since they're all in the effects loop.

Those are definitely good options, and something like the Helix is probably the best choice for what I am looking for, as I am planning to get a few pedals for a joint bass/guitar pedalboard in the future. But I have a Rumble Studio with a ton of options right now and I prefer something way simpler: a couple of pedals doing just what I need and a couple of knobs to adjust the options without going through different menus, etc.! But thanks for the recommendations, it's a really tempting alternative!

Check out Saturnworks Pedals - Shop. They do all kinds of utility stuff that works and looks great, and their pricing is decent, including custom stuff

Parallel chains sharing one FX loop. Very similar to what I'm trying to do, except my "guitar" is the signal from an octave-up pedal and I need both bass & Oct-up to share my SuperEGO...

I've been toying with using the GGG Translocator.

The Translocator and an extra splitter-blender with mutes may fill the bill...

Do you need to switch on the fly?

I was working out a way to switch the stuff in your diagram using a single rotary switch. You've got 4 "scenes"... but that won't work if you need to switch things up with your feet while your hands are busy playing...

These sound like great options, I think I can build the Translocator and add a switch to mute the secondary instrument or keep both. I did a quick sketch of that with two LEDs, each showing red if the FX loop is in the middle, green if it is a bypass or be off for mute, which sounds cool. It would be ~50 EUR to build it.

Looks like Saturnworks has a similar option without the switch, so that would be my plan B if I fail at building it!

 

[Feral Feline]

...
These sound like great options, I think I can build the Translocator and add a switch to mute the secondary instrument or keep both. I did a quick sketch of that with two LEDs, each showing red if the FX loop is in the middle, green if it is a bypass or be off for mute, which sounds cool. It would be ~50 EUR to build it.

Looks like Saturnworks has a similar option without the switch, so that would be my plan B if I fail at building it!

CL!

I hope you build it, and share your creation with the world!

 

[Feral Feline]

PS:

I meant to put this in with the Translocator post, TH CUSTOM's Pro-Cessor...

Link Removed

The version I have ('cause, for my needs, I didn't like the order of the jacks in ver4)
Link Removed

Order the Large PCB V4 or compact PCB V3 from THCustoms, or you can get a full kit from Musikding and wire it up either way:
Pro-Cessor kit, 15,00 €.

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how to make the Pro-cessor work WITH the Translocator...

 

[amper]

So which one do you recommend?

Any programmble loop switcher will do what you are trying to do. Probably even a non-programmable loop switcher would do it. I would look at: TheGigRig G3 and G3 Atom, and QuarterMaster series; the One Control Tail Loop Series; the Boss ES and MS series, or even their GT-1000 and GT-1000Core, among the many other excellent products in the industry.

If you go the non-programmable route, you may need to stack loop switchers in order to achieve all your routing goals.

 

[Feral Feline]

Thanks. I like the stacking idea, but admittedly the programmable route seems more flexible.

 

[JackMinion]

Parallel chains sharing one FX loop. Very similar to what I'm trying to do, except my "guitar" is the signal from an octave-up pedal and I need both bass & Oct-up to share my SuperEGO...

I've been toying with using the GGG Translocator.

The Translocator and an extra splitter-blender with mutes may fill the bill...



Do you need to switch on the fly?



I was working out a way to switch the stuff in your diagram using a single rotary switch. You've got 4 "scenes"... but that won't work if you need to switch things up with your feet while your hands are busy playing...

I run a similar pedal rig and want to do the same with a freeze pedal to hold root notes on either signal im using but dont wanna tap dance..

 

[Killing Floor]

Every one of the pedals on my board are not specific to bass. I have a loop switcher to take the digital stuff (C4, EQ2, Gemini and midi group switch) separate from analog fuzz, drive, envelope. I use a compression pedal as a ceiling so it's not shaping my tone. So the only real crossover switcheroo stuff is synth patches that are definitely either/or for guitar or bass. And I really only use those sparingly. And same boat, bassist who plays guitar a lot at home and only occasionally out. I mostly write on guitar and say "here, do this". And they say "man, you suck, here's how to make that C!" Anyway, yeah, Wampler, Source, JHS, others, I just don't buy many bass specific pedals because they tend to not sound as good to me, subjective. Except preamps.

 

[amper]

I’ve been meaning to come back to this. The easiest way to do this, by some measures, is to use six non-programmable A/B/Y boxes. I have a One Control 1Loop box on my pedalboard, which costs about $40. Six of them would cost about $240 USD, plus the cost of cabling.

#1: guitar input, switches the output either to the pedal board or to the master output
#2: bass input, switches the output to the pedal board or the master out
#3: pedalboard input, switches the input to either the guitar or bass
#4: pedalboard output, switches the output to either the guitar amp or bass amp
#5: guitar amp input, switches the input to either the pedalboard or the guitar direct
#6: bass amp input, switches the input to either the pedalboard or the bass direct

To do this with a programmable loop switcher, you would need (I think), at least 5 loops:

#1 guitar input
#2 bass input
#3 pedalboard loop
#4 guitar amp output
#5 bass amp output

and you might need to have a switcher that explicitly supports parallel signal routing, but you might not.

The Boss ES-5 goes for about $420 USD street price.

In all likelihood, it’s probably just cheaper to build two completely separate pedalboards.

 

[amper]

Based on my reading of the ES-5 manual, it should work.

If, as I said above, you arranged things so that:

The guitar is plugged into the Loop 1 Return
The bass is plugged into the Loop 2 Return
The pedalboard is in Loop 3
The guitar amp is plugged into the Loop 4 send
The bass amp is plugged into the Loop 5 send

Then, to have the guitar going into the pedalboard, and the bass going directly to the bass amp, you would arrange the loop order as:
5-2-4-3-1

To have the bass going into the pedalboard, and guitar going directly to the guitar amp:
5-3-2-4-1

However, because you would not actually be using the master input or output of the ES-5, you would lose access to some of the built-in functionality.

 

[Feral Feline]

Combine them.

Add non-programmable ABY boxes between the Guitar and Bass and their respective Loop 1 & 2 inputs and into the ES-5's master input.
Maybe.
It's hard for me to keep track of what goes where, what can go where...


Another possible aid to the solution of this problem, if doing it DIY, is to add THCustom's "radio-looper", the Link Removed.

It comes as just a PCB & microcontroller, or you can buy the Link Removed:

• up to five relay channels
  
  
• fewer channels possible
  
  
• Mode1: standard switching On/Off for each channel
  
  
• Mode2: real radiobutton-mode (One channel is active at any time)
  
  
• Mode3: fake radiobutton-mode (One channel is active but can also be toggled off – unit bypass)
  
  
• Mode4: cycle through channels (up and/or down using one or two momentary switches)

A new feature mutes everything: "Switch#6 (unused before) now can toggle a full unit mute. When the switch is pressed the unit gets totally silent until it is pressed again."


Don't know if this would work in practice, but theoretically:
Using additional signal-splitting just for the controllers, have one momentary switch to send program change signals to one or more of the above boards. That way you're using one stomper to change all the interconnections with one step. You have four different configurations in your original diagram, so ideally you'd have one stomper for each of those 4 configurations, using Mode2 real radiobutton — one channel active at any time. I suppose you could get by with Mode4, it's not like you're scrolling through dozens of options.



The BYOC Super8 may be worth looking into as well. Programmable 8 Channels, cleverly controlled by just 5 footswitches. You may be able to replicate Amper's suggested ES-5 setup with the Super8 (ayahhh currently out of stock).

 

[Estropijo]

I have been iterating a bit on top of the Translocator to add:

- A switch to select whether the "secondary" chain is connected or muted
- A 3-way switch to select whether the "main" chain is Dry (no effects), Wet (FX loop in) or a blend of both with a buff-n-blend circuit to control the later
- 2 LEDs that show for each side whether they are main/secondary/muted

And my final design would be something like this:

I don't really have any experience with this... so I would appreciate if someone can tell me if there are obvious mistakes on the circuit! A couple of questions:

- When muting the secondary paths (S2 switch) I am just connecting them to ground... is that correct?
- I added the 3-way switch because I don't think the buff-n-blend circuit will provide the same results as dry/wet on the extremes of the potentiometer, does it make sense or is that switch redundant with the knob?
- The 3-way switch is a 4PDT On/On/On, will it work as I expect?
- I am expecting this to fit in a "Type B" enclosure, that should be enough space, right?

 

[Feral Feline]

Still no replies?
Okay, I'll stab at it again...


While everything should be able to fit it all in the 1590B,
I'd go N1, which really isn't much bigger footprint, a bit taller and thus much easier to fit everything in.

"1590B sitting on 1590N1" from Cozybuilder in this DIYSB thread: Invalid Link Removed




I have a suggestion.

Re-draw your schematic for each of the four scenes:

1) Bass > FX > Out / Guitar X
2) Bass > FX > Out / Guitar > Out
3) Bass > Out / Guitar > FX > Out
4) Bass X / Guitar > FX > Out


Splitting the bass and guitar apart to better see what's going on in each scene:

1) Bass > FX > Out
2) Bass > FX > Out
3) Bass > Out
4) Bass X

1) Guitar X
2) Guitar > Out
3) Guitar > FX > Out
4) Guitar > FX > Out

Nice mirror image of each other.

Drawing the same schematic for each of the four scenes should clarify exactly what's really connected in each scene and errors should stick out better when you follow the signal paths while comparing them.


I'd recommend just using some vero or perf for the BuffnBlend ("split n blend"), layouts on Tagboard or Effects Layouts respectively; save the BuffnBlend 3PDT board for when you really need to use it with a 3PDT.

Check out Love My Switches' website, find this PDF: "Love_My_Switches_Taiway_mini_datasheet.pdf" — it shows a diagram how Taiway wires its 4PDT to be on-on-on.
I don't see any on-on-on represented in your schematic, just on-on. However, when I look at Aion's Halo schematic (a Muff) I don't see on-on-on represented in the tone stack, either. Instead, it's just explained in a small block of text.

Kit Rae's schematic below, is how I would show the connections for on-on-on.
A 4PDT on-on-on is just like having two DPDT on-on-on switches next to each other.

In your switching schematic...
At the moment, your BuffnBlend is just left hangin' at both ends, with nothing connected at the input and the send from the board going to ground; similarly the Out isn't connected to anything and the Return also connected to ground — won't matter which way the switch is positioned if you've got send & return both hardwired to ground.

Both instruments are shown being connected to ground.
The bass goes S1.1>S3.1>S3.3>S1.3>Gnd
The guitar path is easier to follow, also routed to ground.

Do you want the capability of muting both instruments at the same time? (ie sending them to ground)
Consider giving each instrument its own stomper. Position the stompers in the enclosure far enough apart to make stepping on one or the other easy, but also make sure they're close enough together that you can step on both at the same time (if you want/need to be able to make fast change-over).

Both Outputs are also shown as going to ground. *I know that's not how you mean it to be, but that's how I see it when quickly glancing over the circuit. You've got to differentiate the signal/tip from ground, make it clear to whoever reads your schematic what's going on. The #1 job of the schematic is to convey info clearly.

There's no question as to what's ground in this GEOFEX schematic:

Invalid Link Removed

Most schematics have ground at the bottom, even if it's a positive-ground circuit. All three schematics in this post have ground at the bottom.






AFTER mulling it over for a spell while writing all that ...

Here's how I would approach it: I'd try building it as simply as possible — less to go wrong and less to trouble-shoot. After having built it, if I found the extreme ends of the blend pot weren't satisfactory, then I'd reassess and reorganise.

I'm basing mine on GuitarPCB's 4PDT FXCF Easy Order Switcher schematic.
Same thing below, but FXCT is 3PDT without the 4th pole for LED switching:

The FXCT's "input" > input of splitnblend.

FX1I = bass' Input,
FX2O = bass' Output.

FX2I = guitar's Input,
FX1O = guitar's Output.

Splitnblend's output > FXCT's "output"

In the FXCT schematic above, the switches show the Bass is connected to the FX/SplitnBlend, the Guitar is direct.

I would add individual mute switches to each channel either before or after the FXCF/T, probably before.


That's just 3 stomp-switches, with the blend-pot handling "on/off" duties of the FX loop, from "full-wet" to "dry-kill".

- 1590N1 (HORIZONTAL) all 6 jacks on north side, staggered high & low (7 jacks including power-plug)
- 24mm Pot (large & robust to withstand toe-tweakage) Blend Knob (a big one for the big pot) on the right side. (could be left or right, wire to suit; mine wired to increase to full wet turning the knob away from me)
- 3 Stompers (these and their LEDs are the only things on the face of the pedal)

BASS, Left stomper — 2PDT on-on (one pole for the mute and other pole for Blue LED indication)
GUITAR, Centre stomper — 2PDT on-on (as above, but Green LED indication)
FX Flip/Flop, Right stomper — 4PDT on-on (Blue/Green bi-colour LED)​

(Can put the FX stomper on the far left if the blend knob's on the left, keep them together.)

As mentioned, scrap of vero or perf for the splitnblend, and then free-wire the stompers — Even though I already have the wee PCBs, for this project there's no need to purchase/use special little PCBs for the switches, IMO.
Keeping it Cheap & Simple.



If I'm not mistaken, that would accomplish all four of your "scenes".
Did I draw blood?