I dunno, my Jerry Jones Longhorn with lipstick pickups, 30" scale, is plenty bright, as bright as any regular passive P or J.
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Short scale tone darker, why?
- Thread starter LeighOnSea
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Turnaround
Commercial User
It's a complex balance between scale length, string gauge, string mass per unit length and tension. For a given scale length and mass per unit length, to tune to a fixed pitch the shorter scale will require less tension than a longer one. The lower tension will provide a different mix of overtones from a higher tension. So you can compensate by inclreasing the mass per unit length of the shorter scale, either by choice of materials or by increasing the gauge. But the result will be a different balance of overtones.
So generally I shorter scale will produce a darker sound than a longer scale, all else being equivalent. There are ways to compensate, but that usually means compromises in other areas.
So generally I shorter scale will produce a darker sound than a longer scale, all else being equivalent. There are ways to compensate, but that usually means compromises in other areas.
I’m just here for the opinions. I’m not expecting any answers other than “it depends.”
Thanks, and everyone else
My idea was to keep all other variables constant other than the string length and hence tension
so same electronics, spacings, wood, string gauge/type/material, etc etc
I thought that then a short scale tends to sound darker / boomier / different?
maybe I got that wrong?
By the way, I love the tones of my Sire U5 with La Bella's which sounds brighter than my Squier Sonic Bronco with Tonerider Apex Classic pup and ernie Ball Cobalt flats, whose tone I also love
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Ah, that makes sense, and I think is kind of (very?) similar to my hypothesis, but far more clearly put!
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I think you can see it this way: If the string is very short, its behaviour will approach a beam instead of a string. It will simply be too thick and stiff to give anything but the fundamental resonance frequency when plucked. A longer, more flexible string will do all sorts of things that the shorter can't.
Now, the difference between for example 34" and 30" is pretty small. Personally I think the very slightly "darker" tones from a short scale is something good. It sounds beefier and lies better in a mix, IMO.
Also, on many short scale basses, the neck is proportionally shorter in relation to the body, which might be beneficial for even behaviour on every fret. There seem to be less problems with dead spots and many people think short scales sound "consistent" no matter where on the neck you play. And I agree.
Edit: OTOH, there are more often problems with odd overtones and strings that are "out of tune with themselves" on short scales. In particular on the E string.
That's exactly what I was trying to say with my 1mm vs 1 km long string of same linear density etc illustration.
and the bending stiffness of the string is going to be more significant in stopping higher harmonics as the higher they are the more curvature they have at the peaks and troughs (assuming same amplitude) since there are more standing waves in a given length, that is the wavelength of these standing waves is shorter.
EDIT: All else being equal
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My 30" scale Bass VI has the original factory 84-24 string set. It sounds very bright.
I think the question should be:
– At what scale length you only add overtones that are not beneficial for the sound you strive for?
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A longer string won't sound "thinner", but it will produce a broader spectrum of frequencies. So if you get more treble, you will get relatively less bottom if the overall volume should stay the same. It doesn't mean it's not there.
Edit: In an ideal world, a longer scale will give better sustain because of less damping of the string (because it's relatively thinner for its length). And cleaner overtones.
I think all of you know how crappy any bass can sound when playing the thickest strings at the highest frets. That's "extreme short scale" effectively.
@Makten & @Turnaround have the explanation, I can only elaborate on what they said; the thicker a string is in relation to its length has a direct effect on how it vibrates. Even if a 30” and 34” strings are the same gauge, the ratio of their thickness to their length is different.
If you go to 2:35 in the video linked here;
you will see a visual representation of a string vibrating at induced frequencies to display nodes and anti-nodes that occur at specific resonant frequencies. Your bass strings vibrate this same way, but you get the vibration going by plucking the string, not by inducing a vibration into the string with an external source creating the vibration.
So when you pluck a bass string, you get the vibration pattern shown as the 1st resonance (aka fundamental). If it was 41.2 Hz, it would be the same pitch as an open E string on a bass in standard tuning.
As the string vibrates it will go through some of the other patterns of resonant frequencies, which create the overtones / harmonics. Those harmonics are what make an open E string on a bass sound different than the same frequency note on a saxophone, or a tuba, or a piano, etc.
So, if a bass string is 34” long, tuned up to 41.2 Hz and plucked, some of the resonances vibrate more, or less, than others. If you take the same gauge string 30” long tuned to 41.2Hz and pluck it, some different resonances vibrate better and some vibrate less than the resonances on the 34” scale string. (And also; the pickup under the 34” scale string might be directly at a node or anti-node, and be at the opposite location under a 30” scale string)
The reason some resonances / harmonics on a 34” scale string vibrate more (or less) than the resonances / harmonics of a 30” scale string tuned to the same pitch is due to the characteristics of the two strings (mass, diameter, stiffness, length, tension, ratio of length to diameter, anchor points, etc.). The location of pickup as mentioned above can make a harmonic stand out or not.
If you go to 2:35 in the video linked here;
you will see a visual representation of a string vibrating at induced frequencies to display nodes and anti-nodes that occur at specific resonant frequencies. Your bass strings vibrate this same way, but you get the vibration going by plucking the string, not by inducing a vibration into the string with an external source creating the vibration.
So when you pluck a bass string, you get the vibration pattern shown as the 1st resonance (aka fundamental). If it was 41.2 Hz, it would be the same pitch as an open E string on a bass in standard tuning.
As the string vibrates it will go through some of the other patterns of resonant frequencies, which create the overtones / harmonics. Those harmonics are what make an open E string on a bass sound different than the same frequency note on a saxophone, or a tuba, or a piano, etc.
So, if a bass string is 34” long, tuned up to 41.2 Hz and plucked, some of the resonances vibrate more, or less, than others. If you take the same gauge string 30” long tuned to 41.2Hz and pluck it, some different resonances vibrate better and some vibrate less than the resonances on the 34” scale string. (And also; the pickup under the 34” scale string might be directly at a node or anti-node, and be at the opposite location under a 30” scale string)
The reason some resonances / harmonics on a 34” scale string vibrate more (or less) than the resonances / harmonics of a 30” scale string tuned to the same pitch is due to the characteristics of the two strings (mass, diameter, stiffness, length, tension, ratio of length to diameter, anchor points, etc.). The location of pickup as mentioned above can make a harmonic stand out or not.
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I think something often lost in these discussions is whether we are talking about the amplified tone or the unplugged tone.
It seems to me many of those saying their SS basses are just as bright as others may be speaking about the amplified tone, and I'm not disagreeing.
Play a bunch of unplugged basses, specifically the open E string. I can't add anything to the technical info already shared above, but I think your ears will likely reveal that a shorter string has more fundamental and less overtones, all else equal. This can be described as darker, less resonant, more boomy, or many other phrases.
When I started trying and buying SS basses, this annoyed me. I kept trying different types and brands of brand-new strings and couldn't get a clear, ringing E string. I learned to accept that the "less overtones" thing is a fact.
Later I landed on my favorite SS, the Junior Collection Jazz Bass (made by Fender Japan, there is an active "club" thread here). I'm not sure why, but this bass has the most "lively" E string of any SS bass I've played, hence it is a keeper for me. Still not has a lively as a 34" scale, but the closest I have found.
After 5 years of playing SS basses and 25 years of long-scale, I'm still learning from threads like this one
It seems to me many of those saying their SS basses are just as bright as others may be speaking about the amplified tone, and I'm not disagreeing.
Play a bunch of unplugged basses, specifically the open E string. I can't add anything to the technical info already shared above, but I think your ears will likely reveal that a shorter string has more fundamental and less overtones, all else equal. This can be described as darker, less resonant, more boomy, or many other phrases.
When I started trying and buying SS basses, this annoyed me. I kept trying different types and brands of brand-new strings and couldn't get a clear, ringing E string. I learned to accept that the "less overtones" thing is a fact.
Later I landed on my favorite SS, the Junior Collection Jazz Bass (made by Fender Japan, there is an active "club" thread here). I'm not sure why, but this bass has the most "lively" E string of any SS bass I've played, hence it is a keeper for me. Still not has a lively as a 34" scale, but the closest I have found.
After 5 years of playing SS basses and 25 years of long-scale, I'm still learning from threads like this one
I don't find my short scale basses to be inherently darker than longer scales. I would agree that they are drier (fewer audible overtones) though. Whether or not that's desirable depends on your own tonal goals. I would disagree that fewer overtones results in a less clear tone on the lower strings, the very opposite of that can be true in a lot of cases.
Thanks! Thats the bit I was wondering about.
So if same strings on both, from your list there its tension affects resonance of harmonics (as well as fundqmental freq - I didnt think of that), and length to diameter (and others I guess).
So, my next question is going to be, do you know what the physics behind those effects are? Eg why/how does tension affect relative resonance of the different harmonics. And is the bending stiffness (not modulus) the reason for the length to thick ratio effect?
Probly the answer to all that is, 'that's complicated'
I've done teaching/research in scaling other things (ship resistance, composites etc) and so these 'scaling effects' interested me.
Sorry for being a Geek, but I'm too old to stop asking questions now.
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I don’t know that tension *alone* affects harmonics.
First of all, the resonant harmonics of two strings tuned to the same pitch are the same even if the two strings are of different lengths. The resonant harmonics are a matter of mathematics. So if a string is tuned to 41.2 Hz, the second harmonic is 82.4 Hz (f1 x 2) and the third harmonic is f1 x 3 = 123.6 Hz and so on.
The difference is that the harmonic frequencies “develop” or “ring-out” more on a longer vibrating length than they do on a shorter vibrating length.
The harmonics become a greater content of the total sound on a longer scale as compared to a shorter scale. The notes on a shorter scale length will have less harmonic content and more fundamental content, which is the primary reason shorter scale basses seem to have less brightness than longer scale.
