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Ever heard of ABS brakes? Or Brembo brakes? Like Corvettes, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, and European bikes use? Harleys all have ABS brakes, and the new ones all use Brembos (the calipers just don't say so). They stop just as fast as any other bike of similar weight...
No, not all Harleys have ABS. Only in 2008 did the MoCo start putting ABS on motorcycles but that was the touring bikes.
Just because a motorcycle has ABS does not make it safe as a car. A car has 4 wheels and doesn't fall over when panic stopped.
No matter how good the brakes on any motorcycle it will be useless without the proper training, skills and experience of the rider. When I ride my Harley, I know that I need to keep a bigger gap for stopping because in a panic situation, I cannot throw the bike around due to its design faults. When I ride my sportbike, I keep a bigger gap to give me the extra time to evaluate the situation and react accordingly.
The thing to remember is this: Just like a musical instrument, one cannot pick up a motorcycle and expect to be an expert right away. It takes years of dedicated practice, full time awareness and the drive to better one self.
Dear Joe (OP),
I apologize for the length of this post in advance. I have ridden motorcycles since I was 14 and have enjoyed every minute. I am now 57. I am a former MSF RiderCoach and am an engineering-safety professional formerly responsible for safety for two motorcycle brands. So, that is out of the way.
Despite all of this, I have never lost anyone to a motorcycle accident. I know it happens because I used to investigate traffic accidents. I used to ride with my brother, but he just died. Not in a motorcycle accident--but cancer took him two months ago. You just never know when--or how--you will go. So, enjoy life, but do it knowledgeably.
If you want to ride a motorcycle, take the advice already offered and take an MSF class. Learn on a SMALL motorcycle. How many of us see posers on H-Ds that are a menace to themselves and others because they never learned how to ride and never will learn how to ride because they are afraid and are on a bike that is too big? Unskilled H-D riders would slow down the minivans pulling boats on trailers causing traffic backups during the summer in Minnesota.
There is really nothing that is as much fun as riding a SLOW bike FAST. That is how you learn how to go fast.
The above photo is of me doing my last track day at Brainerd International Raceway in Minnesota. I rode a 600-cc sport bike that did not even make 100 HP--but it wasn't trying to kill me. I did that all by myself.
Later that day, I put myself in the hospital for six days. I high-sided in turn 4 on cold tires. At least I have a good story to tell and I didn't get hit by a Buick. I crashed right in front of the ambulance and was at the hospital within 10 minutes. Since I had all the protective gear, I did not have a scratch on me, but I had broken bones, a separated shoulder, and had a spinal fusion the next year.
After all this, I have come to the following conclusions:
1. I LOVE riding a motorcycle
2. I learned how to ride properly on a small bike
3. Riding a motorcycle IS dangerous, but so is driving a car
4. I only go fast when it is (relatively) safe (e.g., at the racetrack)
5. I do not ride on the street anymore (see below)
6. I only ride in the dirt
7. I always use good protective gear
8. Take the MSF class
9. Continue to work on improving your riding skills
I have given up riding on the street because I want to have all of my limbs and faculties so that I can spend the last decades of my life being able to improve my bass playing during retirement.
However, I am completely supportive of anyone wanting to ride. It is a blast that cannot be duplicated any other way. I still miss it. But, again, if you do want to ride--do it right!
DO NOT let your ego convince you that you need to learn on a 1500-cc cruiser. As already mentioned, you WILL DROP YOUR BIKE SEVERAL TIMES while learning!!! (I have always found females to be much better students than males because they do not need to show how macho they are.)
All the best wishes to you regardless of your decision. Enjoy life!
I apologize for the length of this post in advance. I have ridden motorcycles since I was 14 and have enjoyed every minute. I am now 57. I am a former MSF RiderCoach and am an engineering-safety professional formerly responsible for safety for two motorcycle brands. So, that is out of the way.
Despite all of this, I have never lost anyone to a motorcycle accident. I know it happens because I used to investigate traffic accidents. I used to ride with my brother, but he just died. Not in a motorcycle accident--but cancer took him two months ago. You just never know when--or how--you will go. So, enjoy life, but do it knowledgeably.
If you want to ride a motorcycle, take the advice already offered and take an MSF class. Learn on a SMALL motorcycle. How many of us see posers on H-Ds that are a menace to themselves and others because they never learned how to ride and never will learn how to ride because they are afraid and are on a bike that is too big? Unskilled H-D riders would slow down the minivans pulling boats on trailers causing traffic backups during the summer in Minnesota.
There is really nothing that is as much fun as riding a SLOW bike FAST. That is how you learn how to go fast.
The above photo is of me doing my last track day at Brainerd International Raceway in Minnesota. I rode a 600-cc sport bike that did not even make 100 HP--but it wasn't trying to kill me. I did that all by myself.
Later that day, I put myself in the hospital for six days. I high-sided in turn 4 on cold tires. At least I have a good story to tell and I didn't get hit by a Buick. I crashed right in front of the ambulance and was at the hospital within 10 minutes. Since I had all the protective gear, I did not have a scratch on me, but I had broken bones, a separated shoulder, and had a spinal fusion the next year.
After all this, I have come to the following conclusions:
1. I LOVE riding a motorcycle
2. I learned how to ride properly on a small bike
3. Riding a motorcycle IS dangerous, but so is driving a car
4. I only go fast when it is (relatively) safe (e.g., at the racetrack)
5. I do not ride on the street anymore (see below)
6. I only ride in the dirt
7. I always use good protective gear
8. Take the MSF class
9. Continue to work on improving your riding skills
I have given up riding on the street because I want to have all of my limbs and faculties so that I can spend the last decades of my life being able to improve my bass playing during retirement.
However, I am completely supportive of anyone wanting to ride. It is a blast that cannot be duplicated any other way. I still miss it. But, again, if you do want to ride--do it right!
DO NOT let your ego convince you that you need to learn on a 1500-cc cruiser. As already mentioned, you WILL DROP YOUR BIKE SEVERAL TIMES while learning!!! (I have always found females to be much better students than males because they do not need to show how macho they are.)
All the best wishes to you regardless of your decision. Enjoy life!
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The word "newer" is sort of implied. I don't think Joe is thinking about one of these - which, as you say, didn't have ABS brakes...
I imagine he's looking at something like this Harley - which does have ABS; and Brembo brakes. I am perfectly aware of the need for proper training and practice. What part of 50 years experience and MSF Instructor did you not understand?
Only two kind of riders Joe. Those who have fallen and those who are gonna fall. Embrace this idea as a certainty if you decide to take up motor scooters.
I would start small and work up as you gain experience. I started on a 100 and worked up. I had some crashes and I've been beat up pretty good, but nothing life changing.
I would start small and work up as you gain experience. I started on a 100 and worked up. I had some crashes and I've been beat up pretty good, but nothing life changing.
The word "newer" should never be implied specially when it comes to Harleys. When I think of Harley, I don't think of a new one especially since the used market is flooded with low mile, low cost motorcycles (and I'm not talking about Sportsters). Even the Twin Cam motor can be considered "newer" specially when compared to older models.
I did take the MSF course about 20 years ago. 2 days in a parking lot around cones at low speed and here is your motorcycle endorsement. When I moved to the Netherlands, I had to get a new motorcycle endorsement. I ended up failing both tests (yes there are 2 tests - one riding around cones in a parking lot but more advanced and a road test) because even though I had a few years of "riding" experience, my skills were non-existent as far as the Dutch DMV was concerned. Since getting my Dutch motorcycle endorsement, I have taken track day training courses and that really shines a light on not having the right skills not only for closed track riding but road riding in an emergency situation.
My point I am trying to make is that it doesn't matter how many years of experience one has, it is how they spent their time while riding.
I think y'all can give Joe a break on the skills lectures. Read the OP. He was hooning around on bikes as a teen. He knows how fast they can bite you.
He has a hankering to have another go and expressed expressly how he tentatively plans to go through some proper training. Should he or shouldn't he is the only question.
He has a hankering to have another go and expressed expressly how he tentatively plans to go through some proper training. Should he or shouldn't he is the only question.
well then yes, he should.
However riding on the street is nothing like riding in the scrub or on lonely dirt roads, at all, OP says he really wants a bike but has enough reservations to ask for advice, it would be remiss to not provide it.
Your fear is what keeps you alive on a motorcycle. When you stop being afraid of it then it has an easy job of killing you.What better place to ask than here
The short story:
When I was a kid I was obsessed with motorcycles and mini bikes. Built every motorcycle model in creation, including the working engine of a Honda 750. Rode mini bikes in the country (dirt roads and stuff), and rode little motorcycles once or twice. I've dreamed, I mean literally dreamed (not while awake), of riding my entire life. They're always great dreams, almost as good as the girlie dreams, and much like the flying ones. So why the big question mark?
When I was about 17 a cousin of mine, a very experienced long time rider, was killed on a motorcycle. My parents then did a fine job of scaring the crap out of me, and it worked. I've also been in a few car accidents that were impossible to have prevented, and that helped embed the fear. Hit a pot hole on the highway several years back also that blew out a tire and almost made me lose control - and couldn't help wondering, what if I were on a motorcycle?
So... I'd like other people's thoughts on this. Basically, I really REALLY want a motorcycle. Always did. There's a school near me that has an excellent reputation. I would of course do that. Should I pursue this and face/challenge my fears - or do those fears make me a bad candidate for happy and or safe biker? I can live happily burying this desire, but I think there's a chance I could live MORE happily if get one.
Just want to open up the discussion and get thoughts of others.
The other road user hazards are there to remind you to be afraid.
And it's still fun.
You do, of course, need to learn this song, if for some reason you have not yet done so:
My daughter's Vespa is far more fun to drive around in the city than my Sportster.
And the word for the day here is "debridement" noun Medicine the removal of damaged tissue or foreign objects from a wound. Woo. She's got a helmet. No gloves, sneakers, clothing that will shred in 5 feet or less. In the event of a spill, after showing up at the emergency room, the medical brillo pads come out to get the bits of road out of your road pizza. See above, ATGATT
You sound like me...Hardware...limitations, pain and now bloody arthritis in hands...limp and short energy
- Oct 7, 2000
- 18,619
- 38,941
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Musicman basses
A day later and I have been swayed...
I've been talked out of the Harley for a first bike. That was a lot easier to do than I thought it would be. I get it, and agree.
I've also fallen head over heels in love with this:
And... but... though... most importantly, ya'll have sufficiently solidified, for now, the fear my father originally instilled.
As I think I said earlier in this thread, my wife and I plan to one day purchase a summer home (or move out of the city entirely). I just landed the greatest gig of my life. Bass playing is the most important thing to me. If I had to stop doing it, well... I' don't even want to imagine if I had to stop doing it.
I think I can put this on hold for a few more years. Maybe take a class or two in the meantime, start learning a bit more about bikes and riding, and save my pennies as to not have the purchase put a severe dent in my finances right now.
Don't want to talk too much because with all that said, there's still a chance that I wake up a week from now with a burning, "Screw this. You only live once," and run out and buy something, but this has been seriously reconsidered. For now.
Thanks everyone. And again, I can't imagine a better place to have brought this question.
I've been talked out of the Harley for a first bike. That was a lot easier to do than I thought it would be
. I get it, and agree. I've also fallen head over heels in love with this:
And... but... though... most importantly, ya'll have sufficiently solidified, for now, the fear my father originally instilled.
As I think I said earlier in this thread, my wife and I plan to one day purchase a summer home (or move out of the city entirely). I just landed the greatest gig of my life. Bass playing is the most important thing to me. If I had to stop doing it, well... I' don't even want to imagine if I had to stop doing it.
I think I can put this on hold for a few more years. Maybe take a class or two in the meantime, start learning a bit more about bikes and riding, and save my pennies as to not have the purchase put a severe dent in my finances right now.
Don't want to talk too much because with all that said, there's still a chance that I wake up a week from now with a burning, "Screw this. You only live once," and run out and buy something, but this has been seriously reconsidered. For now.
Thanks everyone. And again, I can't imagine a better place to have brought this question.
I've ridden over 1,000,000 miles on motorcycles over the course of 51 years. I'd also taught Motorcycle Safety Classes for 25 years. That said.....
For years, I've thought about a fact that I would have loved to have told each and every one of the thousands of students that I taught over the years but couldn't. However, I'll share it for purposes of this discussion because years of observation has convinced me that it's pretty-much true.
How you do on a motorcycle is very "age-dependent". If you're young, you'll have very fast reflexes, lots of courage but not enough situational-awareness to avoid many dangerous situations. If you're older, you'll have the deeply-embedded skills of a car driver and will have a great chance of being injured or killed on a motorcycle. This happens because you'll ride the bike the same way that you drive a car and it will get you killed. If you start riding young and are lucky enough to avoid injury, you'll always have the situational-awareness of a motorcyclist and not of an automobile driver.
This may not make sense when you first read it but watch how you, and others drive cars. Do you tailgate, do you drive with cars to the left of you or to the right of you? How many seconds can you see ahead on the road?
On a motorcycle, the only way that you stay alive is by seeing danger early enough to do something to avoid it. Unfortunately, you don't have tons of steel and airbags protecting you so your only options are to speed up, slow down, go right or go left. Car drivers don't worry about such things and ALWAYS drive alongside other cars and usually tailgate. As a motorcyclist, they would have no options to avoid danger and would suffer the consequences.
As for me, I drive a car with the exact same mindset that I use when riding a motorcycle. Fortunately, those skills have served me well because I've ridden in 49 states, 6 Canadian provinces, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Detroit, New York City, Atlanta, etc, etc, etc and have been involved in ZERO accidents. I'm not bragging and I'm convinced that the day will come when someone runs a Stop sign, a Red Light or does something so unexpected that I never see my death coming but as an earlier poster said... I'm trying to delay that long enough in order to die from something else first.
Since this post was FREE!!! Take it for whatever it's worth to you.
For years, I've thought about a fact that I would have loved to have told each and every one of the thousands of students that I taught over the years but couldn't. However, I'll share it for purposes of this discussion because years of observation has convinced me that it's pretty-much true.
How you do on a motorcycle is very "age-dependent". If you're young, you'll have very fast reflexes, lots of courage but not enough situational-awareness to avoid many dangerous situations. If you're older, you'll have the deeply-embedded skills of a car driver and will have a great chance of being injured or killed on a motorcycle. This happens because you'll ride the bike the same way that you drive a car and it will get you killed. If you start riding young and are lucky enough to avoid injury, you'll always have the situational-awareness of a motorcyclist and not of an automobile driver.
This may not make sense when you first read it but watch how you, and others drive cars. Do you tailgate, do you drive with cars to the left of you or to the right of you? How many seconds can you see ahead on the road?
On a motorcycle, the only way that you stay alive is by seeing danger early enough to do something to avoid it. Unfortunately, you don't have tons of steel and airbags protecting you so your only options are to speed up, slow down, go right or go left. Car drivers don't worry about such things and ALWAYS drive alongside other cars and usually tailgate. As a motorcyclist, they would have no options to avoid danger and would suffer the consequences.
As for me, I drive a car with the exact same mindset that I use when riding a motorcycle. Fortunately, those skills have served me well because I've ridden in 49 states, 6 Canadian provinces, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Detroit, New York City, Atlanta, etc, etc, etc and have been involved in ZERO accidents. I'm not bragging and I'm convinced that the day will come when someone runs a Stop sign, a Red Light or does something so unexpected that I never see my death coming but as an earlier poster said... I'm trying to delay that long enough in order to die from something else first.
Since this post was FREE!!! Take it for whatever it's worth to you.
- Oct 7, 2000
- 18,619
- 38,941
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Musicman basses
That makes a lot of sense. I am however an incredibly aware driver (not saying it still wouldn't apply). I don't do a lot of the dumb stuff most drivers do.
One thing I never considered was being tailgated while on a motorcycle. Tailgaters kick the road rage up in me when I'm in a car. I can't even imagine what that would do to me on a motorcycle.
Which made me think of this, which I haven't shared in over a decade
...
Five months in the hospital cured me of motorcycles. Also, thank you to all you taxpayers who paid for the knee replacement I got last year to fix the one that was destroyed in 1969 by a drunk driver. Riding is a lot of fun, but you have no sheet metal to protect you from the countless morons with whom you share the road. So do what you want, but plan on going down at least once.
Short answer, no.
Short answer, no.
My wife would have a fit. She made it clear if I bring a bike home she will not be pleasant to live with.
I've been around motorcycles my whole life. My dad leathered me up and set me on a dirt bike when I was 9 years old. I've ridden on and off road for decades.
But the wife is an accident defense attorney and sees a lot of gruesome road accident photographs and the aftermath on survivors. In her profession they call motorcyclists "organ donors."
So I guess my riding days are over. I'm getting up there anyway, I've pushed my luck and had my fun. I'll have to be content getting my thrills via music for what's left.
I've been around motorcycles my whole life. My dad leathered me up and set me on a dirt bike when I was 9 years old. I've ridden on and off road for decades.
But the wife is an accident defense attorney and sees a lot of gruesome road accident photographs and the aftermath on survivors. In her profession they call motorcyclists "organ donors."
So I guess my riding days are over. I'm getting up there anyway, I've pushed my luck and had my fun. I'll have to be content getting my thrills via music for what's left.
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Joe 7 pages already and I will be happy to add the to the no vote. NJ subs use to be a safe place to ride about 10 years ago now I wouldn't even take to the streets on anything on two wheels. So, Brooklyn, I think not. I would suggest get in the dirt with the right gear (protection) and your head on straight you can enjoy it a lot more without have to worry about the A@@hat in the 4000 lbs car making a left turn and killing you.
