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Should I Go Ahead And Ditch Tabs???

You can notate bars and rhythms on a chord chart if you want, and most people are familiar with a song they are trying to play.


Really? I learnt to read standard notation as a kid and haven't used it for 20+ years.


Finding accurate charts for pop/rock isn't all that easy, so in that arena it may not actually be a good reason.


I'd say 75% to maybe 90% of what I play on a typical covers gig for rock sits on the bottom 2 strings.

Of course you add whatever. You still have to basically learn the song first. I doubt very seriously you are going to be able to notate enough information with one listen. Without hearing the song first how do you know what octave you are going to play for the first chord? Specific runs?

But why bother when you have all the information you would need laid out in SN before you even listen to the song? I’ll stand on what I said, it’s not an efficient learning tool, but I’ll agree you can can learn songs using them. That’s not mentioning they are great reminder tools, as opposed to 4-5 pages of standard notation..LOL.

One other point that is not often mentioned when this discussion comes up. The larger the ensemble you work with, like ones with horns, and or strings, the less you can have open interpretation of what the end product should sound like on an individual basis and on a group basis. Think of the man hours it would take for a ten piece band to make notations on 10 individual chord/sheets, and expect everybody is in sync.
 
But why bother when you have all the information you would need laid out in SN before you even listen to the song? I’ll stand on what I said, it’s not an efficient learning tool, but I’ll agree you can can learn songs using them.
One other point that is not often mentioned when this discussion comes up. The larger the ensemble you work with, like ones with horns, and or strings, the less you can have open interpretation of what the end product should sound like on an individual basis and on a group basis.
Firstly, I've never needed to learn a song I haven't heard before, and listening to it isn't a major problem and is easier than getting SN for the rock I play. And frankly if i haven't heard it it is very unlikely to go down well at a gig.
Most lower level players also aren't playing in a large ensemble, but I agree as the number of players increase the variations allowable in what people play proportionately decrease.
 
This is ALWAYS the thing so many posters in General Instruction do: Assume the OP's goals are the same as theirs. Smooth_bass, how have tabs done NOTHING for the OP? Sounds like he's learned a few songs. That's EVERYTHING for someone who's just starting out and wants to have fun while learning music. Goal #1 when picking up an instrument like the bass guitar for the first time should be "Learn My First Song." It's never "Learn The Half Position In Simandl Page 1." You can do the latter in a teaching situation, but never without the former.

There's a difference between academia and performing. OP asked if by ditching tads will they digress in learning and become "sloppy". The answer to this is a resounding no! Trust your ears- not tabulature.
 
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Firstly, I've never needed to learn a song I haven't heard before, and listening to it isn't a major problem and is easier than getting SN for the rock I play. And frankly if i haven't heard it it is very unlikely to go down well at a gig.
Most lower level players also aren't playing in a large ensemble, but I agree as the number of players increase the variations allowable in what people play proportionately decrease.

Some good points there. The first one is I agree with is availability, they are not cheap, and if you get one it can still be a holy nightmare to resolve mistakes on the charts. The second I’ll address is pretty much the only music I listen to other than what I’m performing is soft Jazz. So odds are as a Rock player I’ve never heard it. I also play music that is over 50 years old that hasn’t seen the light of day since 1965.

Never said you had too use SN to be in a band and or gig. I still have to learn songs by wrote from time to time. I am not looking down on players that can’t read SN. I have found out however it is a very useful tool. Have a good one.
 
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Should I Go Ahead And Ditch Tabs???
maybe.

if tabs help you stay 'upright' and moving (as on a bicycle with training wheels) then at least you're not crashing into the pavement! ;) but neither are you really 'balancing' the thing properly the way it was meant to be used --- where you have all the control re: where you're headed, how fast you're traveling, how to lean into a turn, when to 'coast' (with no hands! :D ), etc.

IMO, your ear training (even in lurches, even if you hit the pavement!) is better for your overall musicianship than the training-wheel approach: faster feedback (fingers to ear/brain and back again).

i think standard notation is the best, but maybe it's too cumbersome for what you really want to do. that said, learning to transcribe your tunes/ideas into a real-book-style page (melody + changes + time sig.) would require that you learn a bit more than what tabs give you --- but/and you don't have to become a world-class sightreader to make that leap or to benefit from the effort!

anyway, good luck with your music --- tabs or not! :thumbsup:

As for chord charts, I would imagine you would have to have at a minimum the melody line pretty well memorized (probably by ear and how long does that take) to understand what the rhythm cadence is and where those chord changes are going to happen. So pretty much, you have to learn the song before you can use the chord chart. Doesn’t seem real efficient.
define "chord chart" --- maybe you're referring to lyric sheets with chord symbols? not the same as a "chord chart," IME. indeed, a good chord chart is all that's needed by most rhythm section players most of the time.

you could take away the melodies on almost all of the real book pages and still play the set successfully with just the changes, with few exceptions. the placement/location of the chord symbols on the staff (in the bar) is a great indicator of what's supposed to happen and when. (a friend of mine has a popular app that consists of nothing but chord charts: he uses it all the time for unfamiliar tunes!) having the melody line present is superior, but not always necessary for most tunes, for most experienced accompanists, with a decent "chord chart." YMMV
 
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Hi Everybody,

General question that I asked a few months back, but feel like I have a (slightly) better grasp on playing habits overall vs the last time I asked this…

I’ve been playing consistently now for about 15-16 months and usually practice at least 6-7 hours a week (although that is starting to creep up a bit now that I own a P bass bc MAN is that thing hard to put down)…

Anyway…When I started I had NO clue what I was doing so I was using Songsterr for bass tabs…

Don’t really have the money for a teacher, but I felt at the time that I needed some structure and some context on learning the overall fretboard so I used bass tabs to get me going on playing songs…

Eventually moved to playing the tab and then playing the song afterwards without looking at the tab…

I felt like this was a step in the right direction bc it helped me hear a general idea of the song and I’m a visual learner, so using tabs helped me kind of bridge the gap between being a visual learner and trying to become a better listener when playing along without any visuals…

What I’m starting to notice now-I had two designated days of the week where I would just play along for an hour to music and not worry about the tab or being “perfect” with it…More of a play by “feel” and try to have fun with it…As I’ve played more and done this more often I’m finding I like just playing along to a song…

NO clue if I’m doing it “right” or not-I try to find the kick drum in the song and the overall rhythm/beat and stay in time and then go up or down in pitch depending on where the song goes…

Usually I end up thinking “that sounds about right” when I’m playing…If I miss the right notes I can usually tell if I’m really trying to zero in on what I’m suppose to be playing…

Now that I have used tabs on a few songs consistently it helped me understand my instrument better so now when I play without them I feel like I can generally play to the overall “feel” of the song, but I tend to gravitate to the bottom 2 strings most of the time…

Just wondering if cutting the cord completely on tabs will make me digress in learning…If I go ahead and completely ditch tabs will I run the risk of playing too “sloppy”??? (Is it irresponsible to just play along to songs without actually learning it note by note 100%???)…

I get that a lot of bass tabs are wrong or somewhat incorrect, but I’ve used them as general guidance in the past, but they are starting to feel a lot less necessary…

I probably have more fun and feel more “free” when I don’t use them-Should I be concerned about going backwards in terms of playing progress if I ditch them completely or would you still use them a few times a week???…At this point I’m probably only using them 25-30% of the time in s given week-Just wondering if my playing will fall off if I completely ditch them…

Thanks! \m/

I think you have the right idea about using tabs - they are usually wrong, but they can give you a general idea of what and where/how to be playing. I wouldn’t say you need to step away from them. Heck, I’ve been playing close to 20 years and still will use them if I need a quick reference for something. However, standard notation is superior in most ways; the only issue is it’s not widely available or cheap.
 
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When you talk today's popular music bass tab, you are talking in general simple lines compared to many other instruments. Tab on a 6 string guitar is far more critical as the sound of the note by string and fret can be very different, especially with any level of distortion. Yeah, and much of it is not "efficient" to play.

Tab was developed to solve a need in history. I remember seeing tab for lute which predated the guitar.

You can still use tab for any instrument which has the same notes at several different places on the "neck" with or without frets. Consider also the Xylophone, which is very popular in jazz and Latin music and can have 4 octaves.

Piano music does not use tab that I am aware of, but its music has octave notations to show where to play the notes assuming standard hand positions. Get into extremes of hand positions, and they even use forms of tab. The big difference is that pianos do not have the same notes in different places like most necked, stringed instruments do, unless you play a one-string washtub bass.

If you are working on a piece of music and you find the tab wrong, then make your own tab corrections. When I started playing guitar back in 1960--- tab was not available to be right or wrong, and most pop music books were written by piano players, and the cords were piano chords, not guitar-possible chords. Times are better now. Whatever you can buy means there are enough people who will pay for it.

Many times tabs are produced as a second effort from software like Finale, a SN software, and takes more steps to correct to proper placement tabs. What you get on first pass may be the proper first-octave notes (frets 0-5) but not the proper placement for the proper timbre in the produced rendition.

WRONG TAB: Otherwise tab is wrong on web sites in an attempt to get around paying royalties. On some sites if you buy the premium subscription you can get a higher quality tab. But "cheap" string players delight in free versions that stiff the original writers to debase the music business that they otherwise would have paid royalties to when they bought the correct tab.

So you do not get tabs that are accidently wrong; they are intentionally wrong. If this keeps up then the music business for recordings that sell may collapse. Oh, for many, it already has. But if that is your style, then you will never get "correct" tabs until you are ready to pay for it.

Now if you get something like a Hal Lenard book, the tabs are usually good to at least 1/16 note resolution. But if you cannot find books that you might want that simply means the publisher determined that there are not enough people who will actually pay money to get that music by paying for it.

Yes, you do get what you pay for.

Back in the 60's the the only way to learn was by ear, there was nothing that really worked on guitar, much less bass, expect for some jazz or classical double bass music. Even cello music has notation for what strings/frets to play certain notes on (tab).

BASS SHRED: If most of your music is on frets 1-12, then maybe you don't need tab often, but add frets 13-24, and it is very helpful, especially if you are doing music like Paganini or Legnani with large jumps.

These guys shred and are copied in some metal music. I have seen metal bass players who exactly double N4N the 6 string players at high bpm (1/16 notes at 280 bpm). If you want to play exactly N4N the metal shredders, then you decide if tab helps or not.

Now where did those shredding metal bass players get the music to copy note 4 note? They are often music school students/graduates who can do it themselves, or hired somebody to create that SN and/or tab for them. One way or the other they paid for it.

USING TAB: Here is a sample SN and tab from Band In a Box (BIAB) for a song we did for a Christmas concert. It is a jazz walking bass line done by BAIB's pro jazz bass player in their Smokey Nightclub Jazz style. And they paid him for the rights, that is why BAIB is not free.

The tab is above the SN line. I admit BAIB may not/or may have a metal style that the OP may want, but it does show how I used SN and tab to learn this part. If I had just used SN I would have done this on the low 5-7 frets with a standard box pattern; with tab I used 12 frets and got some of those lovely slides.

And if I wanted a bass solo I could have moved it all up 12 frets.

I used BAIB to give the band this in a cord chart with the treble-clef melody line. We played it jazz, and the audience sang and clapped with it anyway. For us that was a great night. And nobody went to the hospital.

I used the tab to learn this faster. Or I could have spent much longer trying to do it on my own. But I would have been held back by my own "efficiencies" (read habit patterns) that never would have got it.

BTW we did this instrumental as I am the lead singer and I could not play this walking line and sing to. I could have if I had used 1-5 bass lines, but not full neck walks. Now if humming sells, maybe I could.

upload_2021-12-21_22-13-44.png



But if you play bass, "money" notes in the low 5 frets, you may not need tab for very long. But start adding 2 and 3 octave shred and you may wish you had it.

My suggestion, learn to read SN and tab if you want lots of better paying gigs. If you want to be a lower paid musician, don't.

For me, I no longer love splitting a cheap bar gig $100 - $150, 3-5 ways that usually does not even cover the gas. And forget new strings! My goal is not that my job supports my music habit. I want my music to support my other habits. YRMV.
 
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When you talk today's popular music bass tab, you are talking in general simple lines compared to many other instruments. Tab on a 6 string guitar is far more critical as the sound of the note by string and fret can be very different, especially with any level of distortion. Yeah, and much of it is not "efficient" to play.

Tab was developed to solve a need in history. I remember seeing tab for lute which predated the guitar.

You can still use tab for any instrument which has the same notes at several different places on the "neck" with or without frets. Consider also the Xylophone, which is very popular in jazz and Latin music and can have 4 octaves.

Piano music does not use tab that I am aware of, but its music has octave notations to show where to play the notes assuming standard hand positions. Get into extremes of hand positions, and they even use forms of tab. The big difference is that pianos do not have the same notes in different places like most necked, stringed instruments do, unless you play a one-string washtub bass.

If you are working on a piece of music and you find the tab wrong, then make your own tab corrections. When I started playing guitar back in 1960--- tab was not available to be right or wrong, and most pop music books were written by piano players, and the cords were piano chords, not guitar-possible chords. Times are better now. Whatever you can buy means there are enough people who will pay for it.

Many times tabs are produced as a second effort from software like Finale, a SN software, and takes more steps to correct to proper placement tabs. What you get on first pass may be the proper first-octave notes (frets 0-5) but not the proper placement for the proper timbre in the produced rendition.

WRONG TAB: Otherwise tab is wrong on web sites in an attempt to get around paying royalties. On some sites if you buy the premium subscription you can get a higher quality tab. But "cheap" string players delight in free versions that stiff the original writers to debase the music business that they otherwise would have paid royalties to when they bought the correct tab.

So you do not get tabs that are accidently wrong; they are intentionally wrong. If this keeps up then the music business for recordings that sell may collapse. Oh, for many, it already has. But if that is your style, then you will never get "correct" tabs until you are ready to pay for it.

Now if you get something like a Hal Lenard book, the tabs are usually good to at least 1/16 note resolution. But if you cannot find books that you might want that simply means the publisher determined that there are not enough people who will actually pay money to get that music by paying for it.

Yes, you do get what you pay for.

Back in the 60's the the only way to learn was by ear, there was nothing that really worked on guitar, much less bass, expect for some jazz or classical double bass music. Even cello music has notation for what strings/frets to play certain notes on (tab).

BASS SHRED: If most of your music is on frets 1-12, then maybe you don't need tab often, but add frets 13-24, and it is very helpful, especially if you are doing music like Paganini or Legnani with large jumps.

These guys shred and are copied in some metal music. I have seen metal bass players who exactly double N4N the 6 string players at high bpm (1/16 notes at 280 bpm). If you want to play exactly N4N the metal shredders, then you decide if tab helps or not.

Now where did those shredding metal bass players get the music to copy note 4 note? They are often music school students/graduates who can do it themselves, or hired somebody to create that SN and/or tab for them. One way or the other they paid for it.

USING TAB: Here is a sample SN and tab from Band In a Box (BIAB) for a song we did for a Christmas concert. It is a jazz walking bass line done by BAIB's pro jazz bass player in their Smokey Nightclub Jazz style. And they paid him for the rights, that is why BAIB is not free.

The tab is above the SN line. I admit BAIB may not/or may have a metal style that the OP may want, but it does show how I used SN and tab to learn this part. If I had just used SN I would have done this on the low 5-7 frets with a standard box pattern; with tab I used 12 frets and got some of those lovely slides.

And if I wanted a bass solo I could have moved it all up 12 frets.

I used BAIB to give the band this in a cord chart with the treble-clef melody line. We played it jazz, and the audience sang and clapped with it anyway. For us that was a great night. And nobody went to the hospital.

I used the tab to learn this faster. Or I could have spent much longer trying to do it on my own. But I would have been held back by my own "efficiencies" (read habit patterns) that never would have got it.

BTW we did this instrumental as I am the lead singer and I could not play this walking line and sing to. I could have if I had used 1-5 bass lines, but not full neck walks. Now if humming sells, maybe I could.

View attachment 4513505


But if you play bass, "money" notes in the low 5 frets, you may not need tab for very long. But start adding 2 and 3 octave shred and you may wish you had it.

My suggestion, learn to read SN and tab if you want lots of better paying gigs. If you want to be a lower paid musician, don't.

For me, I no longer love splitting a cheap bar gig $100 - $150, 3-5 ways that usually does not even cover the gas. And forget new strings! My goal is not that my job supports my music habit. I want my music to support my other habits. YRMV.
—————————————
Thanks for the response…

To clarify-No, I’m not looking to become a jazz musician at the highest level- If I were I would think that reading music in SN would be “Mandatory”…

I just wanna be somewhat competent and be able to hold my own in a jam session when I start a band…

Most music I enjoy is either down tuned or sounds good played on the E string…

I think a balance of tabs and playing might still be the way to go from what I’ve read here…(It seems like it has been working before so this is my main concern about if I try to play by ear only)…

Probably need to play some tabs 3x a week and play the song after to stay “sharp”…

And to your other point-No, I don’t plan on being a traveling or career musician-I just think it would be fun to find 2 or 3 other Metalheads to hang out with and drink some beer and play some Thrash or some Groove Metal with the eventual goal of playing a trashy dive bar…

Lol-I’m still a ways off from those “goals”, but no, I don’t really have high musical career expectations for myself…

Just trying to get good enough to not all out embarrass myself in a band setting in the next year or two…

Thanks! \m/
 
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This bass line is a pretty strong argument NOT to learn walking bass from TAB. It's musically bizarre (that descending minor 9th from A# to open A, etc.) and the fingerings don't make any sense. It looks suspiciously like the TAB you get, when you auto-convert standard notation to TAB.

Personally, I would have gone with my first instinct, played a more "typical" walking line in frets 0-5, and sung the lyrics.
 
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This bass line is a pretty strong argument NOT to learn walking bass from TAB. It's musically bizarre (that descending minor 9th from A# to open A, etc.) and the fingerings don't make any sense. It looks suspiciously like the TAB you get, when you auto-convert standard notation to TAB.

Personally, I would have gone with my first instinct, played a more "typical" walking line in frets 0-5, and sung the lyrics.

That was my first response also, but the more I played the BAIB version, the better it got, and it matched the cool sounds on the BAIB track. I had lots of BIAB jazz versions to pick from and I liked the sound of this one the best. And jazz does have non-standard notes. And yes, it did force me into new fingering positions. And I wondered how that guy ever thought of it.

When we do it again I will give it a more upright sound and play on the neck rather than over the pickups.

BTW, that tab is so bizarre it does not look like what Finale would do. I chose this one because it was so strange to me, yet sounded awesome on the track, and the audience loved it. And it made me stretch in ways I had never done.

I you want the full two pages or a BAIB recording of it, please PM me.
 
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I have made tabs and sheet music transcriptions for metal songs I have learned to play by ear, so hopefully you will be able to get something useful out of my comments.

Tabs are useful. I often write down complicated parts I have figured out by ear in a quick and dirty tab version just so I may allow myself to forget them and never have to figure everything out again from scratch. I do actually love figuring out how to play songs by ear (easily one of the best things about playing for me), but some songs are quite challenging to figure out and the fun of learning them accurately for the first time does not mean you are going to have fun if you forget everything and have to go through the entire process a second time.

Metal recordings often have the bass sit ridiculously low in the mix. Unless you are very much used to listening to the bass part, depending on the sort of metal you like you will almost inevitably have to do a lot of guesswork, which at times might mean that you are actually learning the guitar part simply because you cannot make out the bass part (which is buried in the mix). It doesn't help in the least that several metal bands have bassists that do little more than double the guitar, but you will not learn to play bass parts by ear if you mistake guitar riffs for bass lines. I can assure you several metal tabs and metal YouTube "bass" covers include guitar parts in them, but I cannot think of an easily accessible way to double-check a part you believe you got right during the learning process.

Lots of talented metal musicians freely admit to not knowing any musical theory or notation whatsoever. This is not to say you shouldn't learn notation if you feel that's where you want to go -- but it is a reminder that lots of people who write the music you like never learned these things in the first place. This also means that for certain subgenres of metal standard music theory might have a somewhat limited application. There is a very interesting YouTube channel called Metal Music Theory which (as the name suggests) discusses musical theory in strictly metal terms. This channel has helped me quite a lot with some issues I had understanding standard music theory from a metal perspective.

I don't think anyone has mentioned counting so far. Learning how to count would probably be useful, particularly if you are into prog metal (in this case it becomes more of a necessity). There is a YouTube channel called Time Consuming that is basically dedicated to teaching you how to count complex stuff (most of which is metal) with lots of visual aids.

These suggestions might seem overwhelming at first, but as time goes by everything should become a rather organic and cohesive process eventually.
 
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