Should I wax pot 63 Jazz rewind?

[Tim1]

Winding finished! Ended up with 8.05k ohms. It was about 8.5 with 9500 turns so dropped off 500 which gave me pretty much what I wanted. Would have shed a few more windings to get exactly 8 ohms but things were getting pretty tense between me and the missus who was taking the wire off the spool while I unwound .
It was originally lacquer wound as Narud correctly pointed out (is he ever wrong? ), so I am trying to decide whether to lacquer pot or wax pot. Lacquer potting sounds easier if I can find the correct lacquer and process.....

 

[Jim C]

Here it comes:
Does nitrocellulose lacquer sound better than acrylic lacquer for potting?

 

[Tim1]

Here it comes:
Does nitrocellulose lacquer sound better than acrylic lacquer for potting?

Lol. Believe it or nor I have just spent the past twelve hours trying to find out if it is okay to use acrylic or polyurethane lacquer since I cannot find a source for nitrocellulose lacquer down here in New Zealand, and it cannot be shipped outside the United States which cuts out ebay and Stewmac.
So I will ask the question - is a acrylic or polyurethane lacquer fine/ will it damage or react to the wire?

 

[Jim C]

You have to ask yourself; does it matter?
Perhaps for historic significance but it's already been rewound so it's no longer original anyway.
Why not just use wax as there is less chance that you can F it up?

 

[JustForSport]

Some like lacquer finishes because when a repair is needed the finish used in the repair partially dissolves the existing finish and they become one- better than a layer on another for blending and adhesion.
However, with pickup windings, the lacquer is an insulation on the wire (which keeps many windings as one long length) and if it melts or is compromised, then that wad of windings becomes more like one short(ed), thick (electrically) blob and the design is defeated.
Better to not use a solvent, and keep the potting heat low enough that the lacquer insulation is not compromised.

 

[Tim1]

You have to ask yourself; does it matter?
Perhaps for historic significance but it's already been rewound so it's no longer original anyway.
Why not just use wax as there is less chance that you can F it up?

I had actually assumed there would be less chance to F it up with lacquer - no heat to worry about, just drop it in a jam jar of cool liquid for a few minutes....?

 

[Jim C]

I assume that the lacquer would have to be thinned and possibly heated for best penetration.
I was thinking that whatever was used to thin the lacquer would have to be compatible with the wire coating.

 

[Tim1]

Yes, from what I have read you do thin the lacquer but no need to heat it.

 

[Tim1]

And just to thicken the plot, further research indicates that Fender potted the early pickups in shellac - not nitro lacquer. Any theories on this????
EDIT: Don't think I will go the shellac route anyway. Some people have reported problems with it not drying for a long time.

 

[Tim1]

Well just to update those who have helped with advice, I installed it today. All good. Prior to that I realised that I had bought plain enamel wiring rather than formvar so I unwound the rewind, ordered in formvar and started again. I potted it in thinned nitro and this time ended up with 7.63k ohms which is fine. I ended up with a slightly uneven wind, the top of the pickup being a bit "fuller" than the bottom, probably because I had to stand off centre when operating the manual winder with my right hand while guiding the wire with my left. At least it is a true hand/scatter wind.
No feedback issues so the potting must have worked, and it sounds balanced and a tad more open than the Duncan Antiquity it replaced. Anyway, at least I have the original pickup magnets and bobbin back in my 63 so I feel good about that.
I have learnt much about the magic of pickups during this whole process, and it is certainly much less of a mystery to me now. It has cost me way more than sending the pickup away to a pro and many hours of research and labour. The journey has been rewarding and well worth it on a personal level.

 

[narud]

Well just to update those who have helped with advice, I installed it today. All good. Prior to that I realised that I had bought plain enamel wiring rather than formvar so I unwound the rewind, ordered in formvar and started again. I potted it in thinned nitro and this time ended up with 7.63k ohms which is fine. I ended up with a slightly uneven wind, the top of the pickup being a bit "fuller" than the bottom, probably because I had to stand off centre when operating the manual winder with my right hand while guiding the wire with my left. At least it is a true hand/scatter wind.
No feedback issues so the potting must have worked, and it sounds balanced and a tad more open than the Duncan Antiquity it replaced. Anyway, at least I have the original pickup magnets and bobbin back in my 63 so I feel good about that.
I have learnt much about the magic of pickups during this whole process, and it is certainly much less of a mystery to me now. It has cost me way more than sending the pickup away to a pro and many hours of research and labour. The journey has been rewarding and well worth it on a personal level.

is your other pickup original in your bass? it should be plain enamel. heres what the bridge pickup in my 62 looks like with its original windings.

 

[Tim1]

is your other pickup original in your bass? it should be plain enamel. heres what the bridge pickup in my 62 looks like with its original windings.

Hi Narud, I haven't had a look at the other pickup, don't really want to fiddle with what is already working well. The one I fixed had formvar (may have been an earlier rewind??) so I went with that, plus I checked with a friend's all original 63 and that had formvar. Knowing Fender it is quite possible that they coincided both formvar and PE at various times as there seems to be a grey area as to exactly when they crossed over to PE.
However, I bow to your superior knowledge and many thanks for all your advice with this

 

[narud]

pre cbs pickups werent ever heavy formvar. strat pickups were. guys like lindy fralin started selling their bass pickups as having "vintage correct heavy formvar wire" and that seemed to stick. i agonized over all of this back when i had to get the neck pickup rewound after not using it for years. im assuming there was a short in the neck pickup of my 62 jazz and a previous owner had the wire pulled back to the short,covered the coil in tape, and then resoldered to the eyelets. the pickup was down to 5k while the original bridge pickup was mid 8k. i talked to vintage dealers, had an interesting conversation with jm rolph, talked to jason lollar and him wind a neck pickup for my bass after going through several antiquity 1 and 2's and watched pre cbs jazzes and their pickups on ebay for years and took note of their dcr readings before biting the bullet and having mj at the duncan custom shop rewind the thing. i had it wound to mid 8k (its marginally less than the bridge pickup) and tonally matches the bridge pickup with some more openness that none of the antiquity pickups had. the lollar was open sounding but was mid 7k and lacked midrange bite.

i thought i was bad, but you went one step further by rewinding the thing yourself! my hat's off to you.

 

[Tim1]

pre cbs pickups werent ever heavy formvar. strat pickups were. guys like lindy fralin started selling their bass pickups as having "vintage correct heavy formvar wire" and that seemed to stick. i agonized over all of this back when i had to get the neck pickup rewound after not using it for years. im assuming there was a short in the neck pickup of my 62 jazz and a previous owner had the wire pulled back to the short,covered the coil in tape, and then resoldered to the eyelets. the pickup was down to 5k while the original bridge pickup was mid 8k. i talked to vintage dealers, had an interesting conversation with jm rolph, talked to jason lollar and him wind a neck pickup for my bass after going through several antiquity 1 and 2's and watched pre cbs jazzes and their pickups on ebay for years and took note of their dcr readings before biting the bullet and having mj at the duncan custom shop rewind the thing. i had it wound to mid 8k (its marginally less than the bridge pickup) and tonally matches the bridge pickup with some more openness that none of the antiquity pickups had. the lollar was open sounding but was mid 7k and lacked midrange bite.

i thought i was bad, but you went one step further by rewinding the thing yourself! my hat's off to you.

Sounds like I am following you along a similar road, narud. I am happy with the formvar for now as it sounds great and I am sure I could not duplicate the totally random winding pattern I used. Certainly it is more open than the Antiquity. At least it is the same as what came off it. You are right about it being difficult to get reliable information and even Fender list their vintage pickups as being formvar. Ultimately it is tone that I seek and I certainly have that sorted now.
Again thanks for all the info.

 

[Tim1]

pre cbs pickups werent ever heavy formvar. strat pickups were. guys like lindy fralin started selling their bass pickups as having "vintage correct heavy formvar wire" and that seemed to stick. i agonized over all of this back when i had to get the neck pickup rewound after not using it for years. im assuming there was a short in the neck pickup of my 62 jazz and a previous owner had the wire pulled back to the short,covered the coil in tape, and then resoldered to the eyelets. the pickup was down to 5k while the original bridge pickup was mid 8k. i talked to vintage dealers, had an interesting conversation with jm rolph, talked to jason lollar and him wind a neck pickup for my bass after going through several antiquity 1 and 2's and watched pre cbs jazzes and their pickups on ebay for years and took note of their dcr readings before biting the bullet and having mj at the duncan custom shop rewind the thing. i had it wound to mid 8k (its marginally less than the bridge pickup) and tonally matches the bridge pickup with some more openness that none of the antiquity pickups had. the lollar was open sounding but was mid 7k and lacked midrange bite.

i thought i was bad, but you went one step further by rewinding the thing yourself! my hat's off to you.

Well, Narud - you got me. After reading your back posts and looking everywhere I could not really find anything to argue conclusively against you so, being similarly obsessive, I undid the rewind and have gone back to plain enamel. I figured that I could not ignore all your work and the whole thing seems pretty vague in terms of definitive statements so I have conceded to your wider knowledge. Thanks. It is confusing though that Fender use formvar on their supposedly vintage pickups. I ended up with a pickup in the low 7ks for the same winds, I suppose something to do with the insulation but I am happy to stick with it as I simply cannot face another wind. I must say after a few hundred yards of pup wire I have got reasonably good at winding a pickup though.
Since you are currently my fountain of pickup knowledge, do you know when Fender switched from Alnico 2 to 5 for their jazz bass pickups? There seems to be know way of telling by looking at the metal.

 

[narud]

Sounds like I am following you along a similar road, narud. I am happy with the formvar for now as it sounds great and I am sure I could not duplicate the totally random winding pattern I used. Certainly it is more open than the Antiquity. At least it is the same as what came off it. You are right about it being difficult to get reliable information and even Fender list their vintage pickups as being formvar. Ultimately it is tone that I seek and I certainly have that sorted now.
Again thanks for all the info.

so i had a big long response typed out and then never replied since i looked at it and it was mostly info you didnt ask for. since it sounds like youre still searching, heres what i wrote.-

internet lore that ive come across (which may be complete bs) is that the custom shop 60's were modeled after a set of pickups from a 65 jazz. typically pickups in a 65 are high 6k/low 7k which explains the cs60's tame nature. a set from 65 is also when the bright copper wire started showing up in bass pickups. whether it was heavy formvar or poly, i dont know as i havent seen anything thats super definitive. however, that also explains the use of heavy formvar in the cs60's and describing heavy formvar in the marketing speak.

in the early 80s when fender switched from gray flatwork to black (in around 81 the gray bottoms started using heavy formvar), there was only one jazz pickup. they used the same model in the 62 reissues and in the basses with the white pickup covers. the only difference being cloth vs gibson leads. the pickup itself was exactly the same though and then was sold as the "original 62". same wire and dcr through out the 80s. things didnt change until they dropped the 62 and went to beveled pole pieces and started correctly using plain enamel. the gray bottoms, even with the wire change, sound slightly grindier than the black bottoms. the black bottoms are a little more open and the magnets are opposite polarity.

 

[Tim1]

Thanks for that, Narud. FWIW I am now in a position to have briefly compared formvar vs plain enamel in the same 63 bobbin and bass. Incidentally I contacted the original owner and the pickup had indeed had an earlier rewind, as you probably suspected. Anyway, although I only had the formvar in for less than a day and did not gig with it the formvar had more bottom bloom than the PE which I feel is tighter and more balanced across the frequency range. However this is not a very scientific conclusion since it could totally be a result of my steadily improving winding technique.
I am pretty happy at the moment. I can go back to playing now .