Shouldn't all 35" scale basses have the same B-string tension?

[Geoff St. Germaine]

i've always wondered this, but do the string trees that go across all strings (i.e. on Lakland's and Sadowsky's) have any impact on the tension? It seems like they would since it puts downpressure on the string right past the nut, but then again I am no expert.

But I do agree with what everyone has said about the strings being a major factor in tension. I play mostly flatwound, well really all flatwound except on one bass I never gig with, and going to the roundwounds really makes me notice the high tension of flats.

String trees will not affect the tension. The only things that affect the tension are the scale length, string and desired pitch.

I agree with your observation about flatwounds. I ran a set on my fretless 6 once and noticed that they felt like they have much higher tension. I imagine that a flatwound string has more mass than a roundwound, given the construction. Perhaps they are stiffer as well.

If this topic isn't in the FAQs it should be. It normally explodes into a 4-5 page thread about once a year.

http://talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118185

http://talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65341

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45911

 

[bugbass]

IMO the far most important thing is the quality of the wood and luthiers skills. 34 or 35" scale is less important. The Sadowsky B is one of the best there is

 

[KJung]

What about the angle of the headstock tilt, doesn't that play into the strings feel.

That would seem to have a similar impact as the 'string tree'.... more downward pressure on the nut. However, again, don't think that would actually impact the tension of the string. In other words, if I am understanding what tension actually is correctly, for a given string (i.e., holding the type of string, gauge, etc. constant), if you put more tension on the string, the pitch will rise. So, even if the slanted headstock, string tree, etc. does result in more tension, it would seem that would result in raising the pitch of the string, which would result in having to loosen the string, therefore reducing the tension to its original level.

It does seem, though, that having more down pressure on the nut would be a positive thing regarding sustain of the open notes, etc.

K
PS Not pretenting to be an expert here... I'm just very interesting in bass design and the true impact of these different design features. It seems even the Fodera guys and Anthony Jackson got the 'extended B' heastock issue incorrect (i.e., that it impacts tension when in fact it seems to be the increased mass of the headstock that most impacts the tone of the B in this design.... so even the 'experts' many times don't really know what they are talking about )

 

[gfried84]

The String Trees that go across the width of the strings at the nut give the proper break angle over the nut. This causes a dramatic increase in articulation and sustain. If you remove the string tree from an instrument with a flat headstock you will notice buzzing from the open strings but you will also notice that the bass loses a good percentage of its tone. On my instruments I use the Bar style string trees and the bar as small as it is, is a significant part of the tone and feel. I feel that this is caused by the fact that the bar presses the strings against the nut with a good amount of force(feel the short length of string after the nut) and this in turn causes more of the strings vibration to be transfered to the neck which in turn transfers the vibration to the body and so forth. My theory is that a stringed instrument is all about maximizing the transfer of energy from the strings to the instrument.

 

[KJung]

The String Trees that go across the width of the strings at the nut give the proper break angle over the nut. This causes a dramatic increase in articulation and sustain. If you remove the string tree from an instrument with a flat headstock you will notice buzzing from the open strings but you will also notice that the bass loses a good percentage of its tone. On my instruments I use the Bar style string trees and the bar as small as it is, is a significant part of the tone and feel. I feel that this is caused by the fact that the bar presses the strings against the nut with a good amount of force(feel the short length of string after the nut) and this in turn causes more of the strings vibration to be transfered to the neck which in turn transfers the vibration to the body and so forth. My theory is that a stringed instrument is all about maximizing the transfer of energy from the strings to the instrument.

That makes sense, and is what I would have thought. However, this should only impact the open strings, since once you fret the string, the pressure on the nut should be a moot point.

 

[fretless Bob]

i see this spoken about it a lot round here,

and i will echo everyone else and say that there are so many variables, but for me the thing that affects the tone of the string the most is set up, a good set up will usually help out a lot, for improving low B definition,

as well as finding the right strings for your perticular bass, for instance i have never had a good B with DR strings, there B suck, on the other hand D'Addario's are great all over.


Dave

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I love DR Hi-beams, but I agree that the B doesn't sound very good...it's just hollow-sounding. I gave them a try on my five-string, but I'll be switching back to my Fodera strings (still my favorite ever) and keep the Hi-beams for my four-strings.

 

[KJung]

I love DR Hi-beams, but I agree that the B doesn't sound very good...it's just hollow-sounding. I gave them a try on my five-string, but I'll be switching back to my Fodera strings (still my favorite ever) and keep the Hi-beams for my four-strings.

I can see what you are both saying about the DR Hi Beam B string. I'm using a .125, and it surely doesn't provide that huge 'B string' sort of fundamental. However, on J style instruments in a gigging situation, it does provide a nice growl and sounds like a lower extension of the E string versus a huge B fundamental. I guess its all in the sound you are looking for.

I use the Tobias 135X on my MTD, and THAT is a big B string sound

 

[slap_happy]

i see this spoken about it a lot round here,

and i will echo everyone else and say that there are so many variables, but for me the thing that affects the tone of the string the most is set up, a good set up will usually help out a lot, for improving low B definition,

as well as finding the right strings for your perticular bass, for instance i have never had a good B with DR strings, there B suck, on the other hand D'Addario's are great all over.


Dave

OK, so what is it about a good setup that makes the B string have better tension/tone/feel? Surely a good setup will result in better intonation but it won't improve on the variables that result in higher string tension like a higher mass bridge, bass scale, stiffer neck, etc. Will having higher action effect tension?

I've found my DR b strings to be great. I am talking about the Lo-Riders, and this could be the hexcore stiffness. I forget what the highbeams were like and sunbeams were fine in that area. I do have a stingray though and have never put a b string on the bass that I thought felt loose or floppy.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

That's a good way of putting it- the .120 I'm using does sound like a growly low E, but lacks that fundamental when hitting an open B. I'm having a hard time telling if it's in tune by ear, which I usually don't have a problem with. The Fodera .120 is just a lot deeper even at the same gauge.

Just goes to prove even more that the string has a lot to do with the tone of the B string. For the original poster- JustStrings.com offers a lot of individual low B strings for sale- you can order a few different brands and see what works best for you.

 

[KJung]

That's a good way of putting it- the .120 I'm using does sound like a growly low E, but lacks that fundamental when hitting an open B. I'm having a hard time telling if it's in tune by ear, which I usually don't have a problem with. The Fodera .120 is just a lot deeper even at the same gauge.

Just goes to prove even more that the string has a lot to do with the tone of the B string. For the original poster- JustStrings.com offers a lot of individual low B strings for sale- you can order a few different brands and see what works best for you.

+1 Fun thread!

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

OK, so what is it about a good setup that makes the B string have better tension/tone/feel? Surely a good setup will result in better intonation but it won't improve on the variables that result in higher string tension like a higher mass bridge, bass scale, stiffer neck, etc. Will having higher action effect tension?

Raising your action will get the string higher from the frets, so you can get a sound with less fretbuzz with higher action. But the variables of how straight you keep your neck and how you set your action affect one another, so you have to experiment with your setup to find what is the perfect balance for you. It's possible to maintain low action with a lighter string if you add more relief to your neck, or to have low action with a straight neck with tighter strings, or to have low action, straight neck, and light strings but change your plucking attack to a very light one, etc. That's what is meant by the comments that your setup has a lot to do with how your B string sounds.

A lot of it has to do with how you play. A B string doesn't need to be as physically taut if you don't pluck it very hard. A B with less tension on it will work fine, but if you pluck it hard it will obviously warble more and may buzz. A generic rule of thumb would be to use a thicker string with higher action to get a more clear, solid B, but there are a lot of ways around using either of those methods for a similar result.

 

[fourstringbliss]

The headstock on the BTB has a definite tilt to it, so no string tree needed. I don't mind raising the action either, if that will make a difference. What if I adjusted the truss rods so there was less bow in the neck?

How are Chromes for clarity and cut on active basses? I've heard they're really tight and have a good B. I prefer the feel of flats but I want to be able to cut (with overtones if possible).

 

[fourstringbliss]

Would you guys mind commenting on my strings question as well?

Here's the link: I need a tight B-string on my 35" scale bass - string suggestions?

 

[cheezewiz]

It's already been mentioned in this thread, but I don't think scale has much to do with B string feel, tension, tone, etc. I think it's more a function of the quality of the bass. My 34" scale Sadowsky has the best B string I've ever played with, and I've played plenty of 35" scale basses.

 

[fourstringbliss]

I just played it a bit. The B-string is fairly tight, but it's hollow sounding, and the E is a bit as well. What would be fuller sounding strings? I still want a .130 B if I can get one.

 

[fretless Bob]

Raising your action will get the string higher from the frets, so you can get a sound with less fretbuzz with higher action. But the variables of how straight you keep your neck and how you set your action affect one another, so you have to experiment with your setup to find what is the perfect balance for you. It's possible to maintain low action with a lighter string if you add more relief to your neck, or to have low action with a straight neck with tighter strings, or to have low action, straight neck, and light strings but change your plucking attack to a very light one, etc. That's what is meant by the comments that your setup has a lot to do with how your B string sounds.

A lot of it has to do with how you play. a low B string doesn't need to be as physically taut if you don't pluck it very hard. A B with less tension on it will work fine, but if you pluck it hard it will obviously warble more and may buzz. A generic rule of thumb would be to use a thicker string with higher action to get a more clear, solid B, but there are a lot of ways around using either of those methods for a similar result.

cheers for answering that question for me Bryan,

i always find that if the action is too low on a bass then i will not be able to get a full sounding low B no matter what the bass is, pickup height has a lot to do with it as well, if they are too low they will not pick up the string but if it is too high under the B it will stop it from vibrating properly, (mainly due to the larger mass of a low B)

it is a very fine art that has many variables and is not the same for everyone


Dave

 

[Munjibunga]

I'm sure others will chime in here, too, but there are a LOT of variables affecting string tension on a bass.

35" is the "sounding length," or "speaking length" of the string. That is, the part of the string between the nut and the bridge that actually vibrates. The length of string past the nut and bridge saddle is also part of the tension calculation, and must be taken into account. On basses with string-through-body mounting at the bridge, the extra length of string makes a big difference in tension even though the sounding length is the same.

Lots of factors. LOTS. 35" is 35", but that doesn't make all the difference.

Matt Farrow

Please disregard the above post. The first three sentences are correct, but the fourth and fifth are as wrong as wrong can be. The sixth sentence is correct. Given any two 35-inch scale basses using the same strings, the tension in the B string will be identical on each one, regardless of through-the-body or distance from nut to peg. You should try some stainless steel roundwounds if you want a stiffer B string and that piano-like sound. Strings are probably the biggest variable affecting performance of the B string.

 

[EADG mx]

The strings are Elixirs and have a .130 B - is it possible that even though the gauge is high that the tension is not?

From what I understand:

The gauge of the string doesn't give it higher tension, the mass of the string does. While higher gauge strings typically have a higher mass, gauge does not necessarily equal mass.

 

[Lokire]

Let me simplify this. As far as I know, the ONLY things that affect string TENSION are:

Scale Length
Tuning
Strings themselves (construction type, gauge, materials...etc)


Anything else affects the 'percieved' string tension, or affects the feel in other ways. The action/setup on a bass may also indirectly affect the string tension. As if you've got real high action, then you'll have to press the strings farther down to fret them, which will increase the tension a bit for that note.

The 'extended B' headstocks and simmilar ideas (string through body, more length behind the bridge or nut), doesn't affect the tension BUT it MAY affect the tone in some way because of the added mass of that string. String through body, as well as angled back headstocks will also affect the tone/feel because of a greater breaking point angle over the bridge or nut.


At least, that's my understanding.