Side effects from a very straight neck?

[Turnaround]

There's nothing wrong with having the relief at 3 thou or even dead flat if it plays well for you. And it won't cause damage to the instrument at all.

FWIW, I own a few high end basses, all with impeccable fretwork, and all set up to my exacting standards. One plays well best for me with 11 thou relief, the other with 5 thou. And even with less relief, the second bass plays best with lower string height.

Go with what works for you.

 

[maturanesa]

A too straight neck needs more height at the saddles, so the action increases too much from nut to last fret.

 

[Mammoth_Bass]

Forgive my ignorance but can someone please help me understand what it means to set relief to .003 or any other number? Thanks!!

 

[sissy kathy]

Forgive my ignorance but can someone please help me understand what it means to set relief to .003 or any other number? Thanks!!

That is the measure of how much lower the middle of the neck is relative to each end.

 

[Mammoth_Bass]

That is the measure of how much lower the middle of the neck is relative to each end.

Thank you! Guess I typically have my necks very straight then. I should try giving it some relief by loosening the truss rod

 

[sissy kathy]

Thank you! Guess I typically have my necks very straight then. I should try giving it some relief by loosening the truss rod

If it plays well leave it alone, messing with the relief unnecessarily can introduce problems, buszzing, choking, harder to play etc.

 

[Mammoth_Bass]

If it plays well leave it alone, messing with the relief unnecessarily can introduce problems, buszzing, choking, harder to play etc.

One last question... how do you measure the relief?

 

[202dy]

In the shop: Straight edge and feeler gauges at F7.
In the field: Capo strings at F1 and fret at neck body joint (string becomes straight edge). Use feeler gauges at F8.

Measure from the top of the fret to the bottom of the straight edge.

 

[Paulabass]

My late brother-master set-up guy- kept copious notes for his returning customers. He tracked about a dozen measurements, but he also said-start with the measurements, then make it play right.

 

[StevewiththePbass]

I run my P-bass nearly flat. I shifted all my basses to whole-step down a few years ago, and it just feels best with the neck straight, a touch extra height at the saddles and a pickup height adjustment. Just know that if you need to tune it up to standard in a pinch, your intonation up the neck may suffer quite a bit...

 

[Turnaround]

I am absolutely interested in learning the truth of the matter. Clearly I am not "in the know" of what has been collectively agreed upon as a final truth over the past 4 years. But you have to understand that giving me a dense forum thread, that takes quite a long time to get around to providing conclusive evidence to support your claims(assuming it does get around to it), is not quite helpful to me at this moment. I've already conceded that this may be correct. I'm just not sure it's appropriate for me to apologize for quoting luthiers.

Perhaps you're a luthier too? That would definitely be an easy way to fast track my acceptance of this information. Otherwise I'm going to have to actually read through all of it. Which I eventually will, because I am genuinely interested, and as a science minded person I fully understand that information is updated and changes over time. But being provided a massive lump of new material doesn't warrant immediate dismissal of all previous knowledge.

Moving onward, because I didn't want any kind of argument, and it's clear that you both have extremely strong opinions involving information that I am not yet qualified to speak on.

My initial question was merely about the potential side effects of making the neck extremely straight. It was a logical, and functional solution to the problem. I just did not expect to end up at such an extreme straightness to achieve my goal. Obviously in your opinion this is backwards thinking, so I can assume that you have negative feelings towards a neck that is this straight. I would like to hear your commentary on this.

If it helps, the participants in the "ski jump forum" are professionals with solid credentials and long histories. I do encourage you to read through the entire thread - there is much wisdom in there.

Concerning how straight your neck is - so much depends on your technique, and the qualities of the specific instrument. My main bass has 12 thou relief. If it gets down to 10 thou I start noticing a bit of "clack" as I play. But on another of my basses I have 5 thou of relief and no clack. So don't be in a hurry to judge by the numbers.

And if your G string saddle is too low for your liking in order to get the string height right, then the most effective way to deal with it is with a shim, or as I prefer- recutting the neck pocket. If you really feel uncomfortable with a shim, then recutting the pocket is fine solution. Problem is to find someone who can reliably do it and is willing to do so.

 

[byacey]

One of the pitfalls of trying to set things too low is what works initially may be out to lunch when there is a change in weather, humidity. Better to allow a little space for movement.

 

[Schweedy]

If it helps, the participants in the "ski jump forum" are professionals with solid credentials and long histories. I do encourage you to read through the entire thread - there is much wisdom in there.

Concerning how straight your neck is - so much depends on your technique, and the qualities of the specific instrument. My main bass has 12 thou relief. If it gets down to 10 thou I start noticing a bit of "clack" as I play. But on another of my basses I have 5 thou of relief and no clack. So don't be in a hurry to judge by the numbers.

And if your G string saddle is too low for your liking in order to get the string height right, then the most effective way to deal with it is with a shim, or as I prefer- recutting the neck pocket. If you really feel uncomfortable with a shim, then recutting the pocket is fine solution. Problem is to find someone who can reliably do it and is willing to do so.

Since this thread was still getting some messages recently I figured I'd post an update.

I did end up using a shim, though it wasn't nearly thick enough to get me to .012" relief with the action where I want it. So at some point I'll have to change it out for a thicker shim.

For right now, It's still at the very straight .003" relief: but the G-string action is finally at the 5/64th's range that I've been shooting for. (It was still a little high, even at .003" relief, before the shim).

I'm still struggling a bit to get used to how straight the neck is, but that's purely just an experience thing. It plays beautifully, and could definitely handle even lower action with ease if there was clearance to do it.

Ideally I'd still like to be able to hit .012" (or at least .010") relief, with the G-string action at 5/64th's... and since we're talking ideals, it'd be nice to still have some room to lower the saddle even more if I ever feel like it.

When I do eventually go to put in a thicker shim, do you have any suggestions for material/size/shape? It's currently a strip of business card folded in half.

 

[58kites]

If you want a full pocket wood shim (to ease your mind) www.StewMac.com sells them in .25 degree, .50 degree, and 1 degree angles.
They are expensive (like all StewMac stuff) but one of these three is bound to give you the angle you need.

 

[JKos]

I'm still struggling a bit to get used to how straight the neck is, but that's purely just an experience thing. It plays beautifully, and could definitely handle even lower action with ease if there was clearance to do it.

If you had no idea what the numbers are, picked up the bass and played it, what would you have to say? That it plays beautifully? If so, don't be so worried about the numbers. Just play it.

I guess I'm not understanding your use of the words struggling and beautiful to describe playing the same bass.

- John

 

[/\/\3phist0]

For what it's worth, my necks are nearly flat.
A BIG factor in feel is getting the nut low, and checking the action above 12 while playing, just high enough to not choke out or buzz. Just enough relief to not buzz appreciably from 1st through about 8th.
A flatter neck , with a properly cut nut makes for lower action mid neck.
When capo'd and fretted at 20 or higher, a business card will barely fit between fret top and string.
G&L L2500

A big factor in the success is consistently even, level fret work, and an accurate truss rod. I have had a few that curved far more 1st through 5th, when working the Rod.
Made times tough, had to refile 2- 6 to allow enough curve to be straightened to get 6-10 to reach flatness.
Factory specs mean little, measurements also, feel and function rule the day.
Strings also make a difference in how the action is adjusted.
As a general rule Flats lowest action.
Stiff hex core rounds next.
Round core round wounds need more space to flop around, as do lower gages , other lower tension , and detuned string setups.

Oh and I should add that I detest buzz, play finger style mostly, occasionally pick, rarely slap. I use a fairly aggressive right hand, and could go lower if I play lighter, which I can when recording, but live I'm a bit more dynamic and aggressive.

 

[58kites]

Standard business card is .012 stock
Thin business card is .010 stock
Stiff business card is .016 stock

 

[Schweedy]

If you had no idea what the numbers are, picked up the bass and played it, what would you have to say? That it plays beautifully? If so, don't be so worried about the numbers. Just play it.

I guess I'm not understanding your use of the words struggling and beautiful to describe playing the same bass.

- John

That's understandable. I'll try to clarify here. I have been playing for nearly 20 years now, and I have never played on an instrument that had its neck set this straight. When I first started, and had no clue what I was doing when it came to setups, I was basically used to playing with a banana bow. But at some point early on I learned how to properly set up my instruments using on the factory specs listed in the Fender Bass Setup guide(and eventually, if needed, fine tuning from there). As a result I ended up setting, and getting used to, the feel of a neck at around .012" relief(My Sting P bass plays a little better with a bit more bow, I set it to around .014"). This level of curve is my comfort zone, so to speak.

This G&L, at least for now, plays at it's best nearly completely flat. However to my hands, and mental expectations for how a bass should feel, it feels off. With how much experience I have with my instruments set up a certain way, there is a very perceivable difference in how this bass feels vs. any of my other basses.

That said I recognize that the G&L objectively plays well. The action is comfortable, the neck feels great the fret work is fantastic, and so is the sound. Everything about it is a quality, or as I said "beautiful", experience... but there's still cognitive dissonance due to it not feeling the way my brain expects it to. So there's a frustration, or struggle, stemming from recognizing how much more I would like the bass if I could set to my comfort zone.

You asked how I would feel if you put this bass in my hands, without showing me any numbers; and to that I can confidently say that I would think that it is a fantastic bass, and that I'd have a blast noodling around with it... but I would also say that while it feels fantastic; it wouldn't(and still doesn't) feel like it is MY bass. Which is not a great feeling when you've spent plenty of money on something.

This is all pretty asinine stuff, and I totally recognize that many(maybe even most?) players wouldn't get hung up on the small stuff... but that sadly isn't me. And I know that it isn't a lot of other people on this forum either. haha

 

[Schweedy]

If you want a full pocket wood shim (to ease your mind) www.StewMac.com sells them in .25 degree, .50 degree, and 1 degree angles.
They are expensive (like all StewMac stuff) but one of these three is bound to give you the angle you need.

I looked in to that, but this G&L uses a deeper 6 bolt neck pocket. The Stew-Mac shims wouldn't be long enough to fit the entire pocket, and the holes wouldn't line up either. I still think the whole neck pocket shim is a good solution, but it'd have to be a more custom fit sort of thing.

 

[Schweedy]

For what it's worth, my necks are nearly flat.
A BIG factor in feel is getting the nut low, and checking the action above 12 while playing, just high enough to not choke out or buzz. Just enough relief to not buzz appreciably from 1st through about 8th.
A flatter neck , with a properly cut nut makes for lower action mid neck.
When capo'd and fretted at 20 or higher, a business card will barely fit between fret top and string.
G&L L2500
View attachment 3081007 View attachment 3081008 View attachment 3081009


A big factor in the success is consistently even, level fret work, and an accurate truss rod. I have had a few that curved far more 1st through 5th, when working the Rod.
Made times tough, had to refile 2- 6 to allow enough curve to be straightened to get 6-10 to reach flatness.
Factory specs mean little, measurements also, feel and function rule the day.
Strings also make a difference in how the action is adjusted.
As a general rule Flats lowest action.
Stiff hex core rounds next.
Round core round wounds need more space to flop around, as do lower gages , other lower tension , and detuned string setups.

Oh and I should add that I detest buzz, play finger style mostly, occasionally pick, rarely slap. I use a fairly aggressive right hand, and could go lower if I play lighter, which I can when recording, but live I'm a bit more dynamic and aggressive.

There's a lot of useful detailed setup info here for how you like to play, and I can definitely appreciate that. And I also definitely agree that factory specs aren't everything, but they do get you a good starting point and comfortable position to fine tune from. I've just never had to stray so far from my norm before.

For me, the action at the nut is great where it is already. My issue is that I like, or at least am very used to having, my necks set to around .012" relief. And with this bass, also a G&L, when I set my neck to .012" the g-string saddle is bottomed out but I still need to get the action lower(there is plenty of clearance for the other 3 saddles to be set where I like). So my issue is very much on the saddle side of things. And the use of a very straight neck, and now also a shim, have been my solutions to get the g-string action where I want it(while the saddle remains in the same bottomed out position). The next step is to figure out how to achieve this action, with a neck relief that feels more comfortable to me, and ideally end up with some clearance for the g-string saddle as well.