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Sight reading vs Playing by Ear?
- Thread starter piccolo_whitley
- Start date
I do process music that way, ever since I was a child. I had a lot of formal training in sight-singing from age 7 to 12, which is essentially a blend of sight reading, ear training and 'audiation'. But...
Notwithstanding my formal ear training, I am also self-taught as a bass player. The first 7 or 8 years was 100% by ear. But my memory generally is not particularly strong. My way of working is good for me because it cements things in a conscious way rather than by osmosis. Things that leak in tend to leak out, but if I place them deliberately they tend to stick.
You maybe missed that subtlety in my post. I don't really play back from the chart. Creating it is the learning device in it's own right. If I forget something it is there, but once done they might get used a couple of times but generally they just go in the file. They never end up on stage!
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That's a great point. I was merely describing my experience. I can see where the creation of the tool really gives the brain a chance to really absorb the content.
If I may say so gently... there's often a lot of discussion about this from a particular viewpoint and it's not that often those of us who learn primarily by ear get an opportunity here to describe that process. I would not have added anything to a thread like this ordinarily because my experience here is that there will be a lot of pushback from people who just don't have the same experience, don't understand that experience, and so it's a discussion I'd usually rather not have. This forum tends to have discussion that's dominated by the larger group, which I think is the group that doesn't primarily learn by ear.
That's all fine but maybe for this one time we can listen to each other and learn about different ways of learning without asserting that one way is right for everyone.
I read and write and I'm able to sight so that is a valuable skill, it's the written language of our craft. On a personal level I am convinced standard notation is not intuitive to beginner students and that issue, not laziness or lack of effort, is why so many players never get to the level where they can sight and play.
But that's not what you asked.
My opinion is if I am playing for a specific role for someone else I'd rather be presented the sheets. Because that gives me a window of the intent of the writer. If I'm playing a cover I'd rather learn by ear because I'd want it to be comfortable, second nature so I could dismiss myself from the mechanics and "perform" more freely like the original artist would. There's never a single answer.
But that's not what you asked.
My opinion is if I am playing for a specific role for someone else I'd rather be presented the sheets. Because that gives me a window of the intent of the writer. If I'm playing a cover I'd rather learn by ear because I'd want it to be comfortable, second nature so I could dismiss myself from the mechanics and "perform" more freely like the original artist would. There's never a single answer.
IMO, room for both, without one or the other I'd be a lesser musician. Right now I'm in a band where no one reads music, they're all excellent players and one is a great songwriter. So I rely on learning songs by ear. Maybe a really crude chord chart at most, since my brain at 65 yrs old doesn't remember like it used to. I can pick up stuff really fast, and since I have a decent understanding of theory and changes, I can usually anticipate where the song is going chord-wise.
now in my practice room, its a different story - virtually everything that I play is on the written page (except scales and arpeggios, and even then I'm often reading them). It helps me with learning patterns and fingerings (particularly important on upright bass) in a way that I cannot if playing by ear. Here's an example - one of the things I work on are chromatic exercises in tenths (from Ray Brown Method book). Once you know the pattern, its easy to play without reading, but if you really want to know the fingerboard and where you are at any given point, I need to read them.
Someone earlier posted that the best musicians they know have both skills totally mastered - they can read anything which allows them to play complex stuff without stopping to learn it by ear, but they can also "hear and play" stuff on the fly that isn't written down.
now in my practice room, its a different story - virtually everything that I play is on the written page (except scales and arpeggios, and even then I'm often reading them). It helps me with learning patterns and fingerings (particularly important on upright bass) in a way that I cannot if playing by ear. Here's an example - one of the things I work on are chromatic exercises in tenths (from Ray Brown Method book). Once you know the pattern, its easy to play without reading, but if you really want to know the fingerboard and where you are at any given point, I need to read them.
Someone earlier posted that the best musicians they know have both skills totally mastered - they can read anything which allows them to play complex stuff without stopping to learn it by ear, but they can also "hear and play" stuff on the fly that isn't written down.
I don't belong to any GROUP.
I don't push any OPINION.
As I remember, in my younger (and prolific) years, it was almost impossible to find ANY SERIOUS bass transcriptions for the Rock, Pop, Soul, Funk, etc... music; therefore, almost EVERYTHING needed to be "learned by ear".
It's nowadays, that we have good musicians posting their transcriptions at TB or at some other places of the INTERNET.
Ouch. Looks like I touched a nerve, somehow. Apologies. I was merely attempting to describe different ways people learn and why they sometimes feel the way they learn, because it worked for them, is what should work for everyone. Hope you have a lovely day.
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I think the answer to that question is a resounding Not On Your Nelly!
...
In my profession, you have to read. Period. Even if you know the tune, the arrangement may be different. Try memorizing a score for a play or an orchestral piece with a conductor. My memory is not that good.
I also believe memorizing is very important. I just think you need both.
I mean yeah, if someone calls "Satin Doll" and you have to pull out a book, you look fairly stupid. Anyway, that's my experience. Have a nice day!
I also believe memorizing is very important. I just think you need both.
I mean yeah, if someone calls "Satin Doll" and you have to pull out a book, you look fairly stupid. Anyway, that's my experience. Have a nice day!
It's apples vs. carrots. Two completely different skill sets. If you want to be a well rounded musician, you learn both. If you want to maximize the number of gigs you get offered, you learn both. And don't bother with the bos taurus excrement that [drop name here] can't sight read. You aren't him/her/they.
It's hard enough succeeding in the music business. I don't get why some people want to further handicap themselves by limiting their skill set.
It's hard enough succeeding in the music business. I don't get why some people want to further handicap themselves by limiting their skill set.
No. LOL.
This discussion is a NEVER-ENDING/PERMANENT discussion (and a very emotional one) at TB.
And it has so many various kinds of "SUB-FOLDERS".
The OP's statements (some of them) in the video could be interpreted as dichotomous/dichotomic.
(But it "creates" clicks and that what pays you).
Writing something down (or taking notes) is a physical action/trigger that does help many many people to internalize something they are in the process of learning. (e.g. I take notes in a meeting and then never refer to them afterwards; they make no sense on their own, but I remember the information I learned in that meeting.)
I submit that the act of playing notes on a fretboard is equivalent to writing notes on paper. Both actions help to internalize what you are learning. In the case of playing notes on a fretboard, you are essentially "taking notes" each time you play the song and reinforcing the learning process, something you don't do when writing notation on paper.
That was going to be my next point. Everyone is different. I know how we all love our binary answers to these vs. type questions, but the truth is that there is no one answer; there is only what works best for you.
I would love to be a better sight reader, but I don't see reading itself as a primary learning mechanism for me.
...in this subdivision of TalkBass - BASS GUITAR - usually you'll get questions,
What scale should I use, What mode should I use, What bass notes could I play, etc...
LOL.
Why is this an either-or question? Who says you can't do both?
My first instrument was piano at 7 years old. I took lessons and learned to read the sheet music. After a few years of that, I picked up the saxophone - same thing here, except many more years of lessons and reading sheet music. At one point I was a capable sight-reader, especially for saxophone, which is treble clef only. I also studied music (music major) for two years in college, including theory etc.
I picked up bass after saxophone and am completely self-taught, which means all the bass lines I know were learned by ear. I haven't played saxophone for 30 years now, but when I did, I could learn a new song either way - by ear or by reading the sheet music. I can read the treble clef of sheet music for piano/keyboards. I can read bass and guitar tabs, and if hard-pressed I can read bass clef but I have to do some conversion in my head.
I believe the ability to read sheet music, including to sight-read, is a valuable skill, but also not a necessary one. No one should feel bad for not having this ability, but if they decide to learn, they might just become a more rounded musician as a result. The desire to master your craft is never a bad thing.
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Back to the video, one of the things that bothered me while watching were the little snippets of video mocking someone reading. Dropping pages, looking confused, plucking laboriously. It would have been better to skip that and just talk about why learning by ear is also a valuable tool.
piccolo_whitley is a seriously-pro bass player.
Some of his videos/statements are based on "marketing techniques" (clickbaits) to expand his watching (subscribed) audience, obtain a few more "students".
My issue with "learning by ear" is that it requires someone else to have already played the part.
If I have composed a piece of music, and in order for the bass player to learn to play the bass part I have to record the bass part for him to listen to, what exactly do I need him for?
I'm not saying he needs to be able to flawlessly sight-read the part the first time through. But in my world, a musician who can't look at a page of music and play it after a few passes just ain't worth my time. It's like a plumber who can't read a blueprint.
If I have composed a piece of music, and in order for the bass player to learn to play the bass part I have to record the bass part for him to listen to, what exactly do I need him for?
I'm not saying he needs to be able to flawlessly sight-read the part the first time through. But in my world, a musician who can't look at a page of music and play it after a few passes just ain't worth my time. It's like a plumber who can't read a blueprint.
