Double Bass Simplified Higher Technique by Petracchi question

[Cmmcm12345]

Just starting to work on thumb position and some of Petracchi’s book, but have a simple question starting out on the first page of excercises... the first bar starts chromatically on E with the thumb, the next bar starts with F# with the thumb... the next is G... what tuning is this written for... no reference to harmonics or positions, so is it safe to assume that the first chromatic position starts at the E on the G string, or is it written using a different tuning than orchestra?

 

[Steve Freides]

Yes, it's E on the G string. I looked at those exercises and discussed with my teacher a few years back, and decided at the time that they were a little too advanced for my own thumb position playing so I put them aside. Now that you mention them, I think I'm ready to give them a go.

The way I was taught, and the way I teach, is to put the thumb on G for everything you can, so, e.g. the last two notes of a 2-octave G, Ab, and A scales are fingered 2-3, then Bb is T-1-2, C is T-1-2-3, and that's how one gets started up there. Next is D as T-1-2-2-3, sliding the hand up a whole step. B-natural scale is done (T)-1-2-3 - you play E-F# as 1-4, then put your thumb on G but don't play it, playing G#-A#-B as 1-2-3.

More than you asked, just putting this out there in case anyone does it different or wants to discuss.

-S-

 

[Cmmcm12345]

Thank you! The insight in much appreciated. So, the understanding that it is, in fact for orchestra tuning?

 

[Steve Freides]

Thank you! The insight in much appreciated. So, the understanding that it is, in fact for orchestra tuning?

If tuning isn't specified, it's standard E-A-D-G tuning because, well, that's the standard. If I may ask, why would you think otherwise?

-S-

 

[Cmmcm12345]

I assumed it was, just wanted another opinion. Thanks!

 

[Steve Freides]

[ARNOLD]

No problemo, dude.

[/ARNOLD]

-S-

 

[Wasnex]

Just starting to work on thumb position and some of Petracchi’s book, but have a simple question starting out on the first page of excercises... the first bar starts chromatically on E with the thumb, the next bar starts with F# with the thumb... the next is G... what tuning is this written for... no reference to harmonics or positions, so is it safe to assume that the first chromatic position starts at the E on the G string, or is it written using a different tuning than orchestra?

A lot of players think of thumb position as a range on the instrument, basically starting with the thumb on the G harmonic (octave).

In your book, thumb position is treated as separate technique rather than a range of the instrument. So playing with the thumb stopping an E below the G harmonic (or any other note for that matter) is not out of the ordinary. The idea of the exercise seems to be to teach you various hand shapes and how they relate to the finger board. I. E. The exercise teaches the spacing of whole or half steps and note recognition.

For an example, watch the bassist in the center of this ensemble (I believe the player is Daniele Roccato).

 

[damonsmith]

It is for orchestra tuning yes. He uses more compact, moveable positions that wean us off the harmonics and even the "octave break". It is a fantastic method.

 

[Steve Freides]

I think of thumb-on-G as a place on the path. Eventually, one learns to do other things, and you learn to do them pretty quickly if you do things like place a 2-octave D or Eb major scale, or E and above in 3 octaves.

-S-

 

[Anthony White]

I have a Petracchi question, and rather than start a new thread, I thought I might put it here.

I’m working on exercises 7 and 9 at the moment. They both require the thumb on the D string and fingers 1, 2, and 3 playing variously on the D and G strings.

I’m finding it physically really punishing as I get higher up the D string with my thumb - thumb on the D-string G and above. It’s really quite hard on the first finger especially, and tension is also manifesting in my left shoulder.

Is this just a strength of hand issue (the instruction on ex 7 and 8 is ‘this exercise is for strengthening the hand and intonation’)? Do I just need to take it slowly and wait for my hand to strengthen?

Is it a setup issue? My bass is well set-up by a good luthier. I have a 106cm string length and a 91cm fingerboard, and my G string is at 7mm high at the end of the fingerboard. Should I wind my adjusters down a mm?

I’m running Spiro Weich E-A-D, and Oliv G. The Oliv I can play all the way up to the end of the fingerboard, the Spiro D I cannot comfortably. Would a softer string set be wise?

Any other things I should be thinking of?

Thanks and best wishes

 

[Steve Freides]

What you're describing, in my experience, is usually related to how you're holding your body and your arm in relation to the instrument. If you're standing, it has a lot to do with if you've kicked your hips back to get higher up the neck and similar things.

Let's start with whether you're standing or seated, and it would be great if you could post a video.

And, of course, some it just has to do with getting used to playing someplace new on your bass.

-S-

 

[Anthony White]

Thanks for this, Steve.
I tried to get some video last night, but it was proving difficult to get the device and the technology and everything lined up in my space. I'll have another go.

But for a little more detail - I'm standing. I'm a little over six feet tall. I take a step back to get into higher thumb position, and then to get really high I lean forward a little from the hip. I had noticed that I had a tendency to lift and bring forward my left shoulder a little when the neck of the bass was resting on it, but I've been spending some time concentrating on not doing that, so my shoulders are a lot more neutral now.

I turned my bridge adjusters in a half turn last night, and that has improved thumb position, but I've lost some pizz volume and tone, so it's giving one thing and taking another away. Maybe I leave my bass this way for practice for a while, and adjust the bridge back for gigs.

I feel like I'm missing something from the old "arm weight" coaching cue - the weight of my arm is literally not enough to hold the D string to the fingerboard.

 

[Co.]

I feel like I'm missing something from the old "arm weight" coaching cue - the weight of my arm is literally not enough to hold the D string to the fingerboard.

You might try different ways of transfering arm weight to the string/fingerboard.
I usually find it not very effective to think of directing the weight towards the fingerboard. Instead I am directing it more towards the bridge. That way, my fingers are pointing towards the bridge, almost parallel to the string, instead of perpendicular. I feel, I need less strength that way and stay more flexible and relaxed up to the left shoulder.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I agree with Steve's advice above. Remember that the mechanics of playing in TP are a single chain that lead from the thumb to the wrist, elbow, shoulder, and torso as a whole. The elbow is the easiest thing to see when adjusting the chain, but of course you can't raise the elbow without the force coming from the shoulder and torso. In spite of this, I'll often advise students to raise the elbow to allow more weight and power to transfer from the shoulder to the string.

 

[Steve Freides]

The most common mistake I see is resting the wrist or the forearm on the body of the bass. That loses the connection between the fingers and the rest of the body. Kicking the right hip back further, hinging at the hips, often helps find a better position.

-S-

 

[Anthony White]

Thanks Steve, Chris, Co, for these replies.

Here is a video of me playing Petracchi ex9, from the G. Apologies for intonation and squeaking, and children in background. I thought it would be better done than repeated until I had a perfect performance. It's practice, after all.



So I can see from this that I’m still holding my left shoulder higher than I thought I was, and I have an arc in my torso to the right. I’m not sure that it is clear from the view, but my left forearm is not resting on the shoulder of the bass. Occasionally it is brushing against it, but usually completely clear.

Chris - When I lift my left elbow, it’s working the rear deltoid of my left shoulder. It’s somewhere in the range of feeling between fatigue of a new movement, and uncomfortable tension.

The difficulty and tension I was initially concerned about has been reduced by the half turn of the adjusters yesterday.

 

[Steve Freides]

Looks like you're leaning your upper body forward, not kicking your hips back.

-S-

 

[damonsmith]

While I do not believe it helps your intonation at all, playing those exercises pizz can really build strength.
Also, memorizing a couple of those and doing them with a drone arco really helps.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Chris - When I lift my left elbow, it’s working the rear deltoid of my left shoulder. It’s somewhere in the range of feeling between fatigue of a new movement, and uncomfortable tension.

If you were my student, I'd advise you to take a step back and let the bass lean more into you when in TP. I don't often play standing, but on the occasions that I do TP is the only time I'm truly comfortable because I can lean the bass back into my collarbone and not have to support it further to keep it from falling. With the bass in this more angled position, it is much easier to get around the front of it to apply downward/inward weight to the strings without an over extension of the shoulder.

 

[Co.]

If you were my student, I'd advise you to take a step back and let the bass lean more into you when in TP.

That is a way of standing with the bass, that approximates sitting. I find it very good, for feeling the weight of the arm very direct on the string. You also gain accessibility of the E string with both hands.
Another approach is that of Gary Karr, with a very straight bass and arm weight, that is transfered "around" the bass. Hard to explain for me, but probably easy to see in a video on youtube. You loose something on the E string, but the G string can become easier. I like it a little bit better, because I feel, the string can ring more freely under the bow, without much dampening by the hair. Might be easier on your back, but it might be hard to control, if you are tall. Just try it.