Sin Cabeza Cinco - Headless Fretless 5 String Bass Build

[michaelwayneharwood]

I brought the original prototype of the piano pin bass into work to share it with a fellow low end player in my office, and upon seeing it my cube mate asked me to build one just like it for his daughter. I refused. There is no way I am going to inflict the piano pin system on a seasoned player, let alone the uninitiated. He was persistent and determined to have me build a headless fretless bass, and this build is the result of our discussions. The build will get underway after the Thanksgiving holidays are over, and I am hoping to be able to finish it by Christmas.

My friend is from Spain, so this build has been dubbed "Sin Cabeza Cinco".

Specifications:
- 5 Strings
- Deep Set Neck Design
- Sapele Body
- Honduran Mahogany Neck
- Rosewood Fingerboard with a 16" radius
- Seymour Duncan Baseline SSB5 Passive Phase II Soapbar Pickups
- Double Action Spoke Nut Hot Rod Truss Rod
- Hipshot 5 String Headless System
- Ebony Knobs

Design concept:

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Wood porn. Shown here is a pre-slotted rosewood fingerboard from LMI, the Honduran mahogany neck blank, and the Sapele body blank.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Looks pretty sweet design and material wse. The difficulty on any headless is getting a decent balance so it's not neck or body heavy. Did the piano tuner prototype balance well? What kind of bridge will you use? The one piece ones are HEAVY, maybe the individual ones instead? Looking forward to your posts on this, you seem pretty fearless on trying new approaches.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Looks pretty sweet design and material wse. The difficulty on any headless is getting a decent balance so it's not neck or body heavy. Did the piano tuner prototype balance well? What kind of bridge will you use? The one piece ones are HEAVY, maybe the individual ones instead? Looking forward to your posts on this, you seem pretty fearless on trying new approaches.

The piano pin tuner prototype balanced well, but it's heavy. I am using a Hipshot Headless bridge and headpiece for this build- it's a one piece. This build will be fairly modest and inside the box of "accepted best practices" in it's approach, except perhaps the long tenon set neck. I am tending to reserve my more outlandish ideas for my own instruments.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I have been working on finalizing the plans in the spirit of measuring multiple times prior to committing to fibrous laceration. The neck blank was pulled out and marked up a bit to verify things as well. A mock up using the wood and the plans will also be created as a last verification for the direction before things start in earnest. I will post that today when finished. A few things to note:

1. A 1/4" gap has been introduced between the top of the fingerboard and the headpiece to allow for a "zero nut" if needed.
2. Details for the bottom truss rod access plate has been added
3. Details for the "modern flat oval" neck profile have been added
4. The details for the "set in" finger ramps have been added

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Here's an updated concept drawing textured using the actual wood. The drawing does not reflect the black grain fill I have planned, but not having worked with Sapele prior to this I am not sure if I will get the effect I am shooting for. I am hoping to achieve a similar effect to the results achieved with the Lady 5Jane, but time will be the tell.

 

[PDX Mathias]

Very cool. It has some similarities with the bass I build prior to my current project.
I really like the Hipshot headless system, but I learned one thing. If you are planning on using double-ball strings, have a set of strings handy before you install the bridge, to use as a distance guide.
When I installed my bridge I put it about ¼" too far away from the nut, so now the "claw" holding on to the string can't reach the ball end of the string, even when loosened all the way. The intonation adjustment has plenty of range where it sits, but I have to use regular strings with it, clamped at the headpiece.

In the latest concept you leave out the cutout for the tuners, is that how you will do it? The cutout isn't necessary, but then you'll probably want to dish-out a scoop on that area of the body, so you can grab underneath the tuners.
I have a cutout on mine but I used two strap buttons to make sure the bass sits on those, and not on the tuners, when leaned against a wall.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Very cool. It has some similarities with the bass I build prior to my current project.
I really like the Hipshot headless system, but I learned one thing. If you are planning on using double-ball strings, have a set of strings handy before you install the bridge, to use as a distance guide.
When I installed my bridge I put it about ¼" too far away from the nut, so now the "claw" holding on to the string can't reach the ball end of the string, even when loosened all the way. The intonation adjustment has plenty of range where it sits, but I have to use regular strings with it, clamped at the headpiece.

In the latest concept you leave out the cutout for the tuners, is that how you will do it? The cutout isn't necessary, but then you'll probably want to dish-out a scoop on that area of the body, so you can grab underneath the tuners.
I have a cutout on mine but I used two strap buttons to make sure the bass sits on those, and not on the tuners, when leaned against a wall.

View attachment 518509 View attachment 518510

Thanks both for the compliment, and for the advice! Good catch on the change to the cut out at the bottom - I forgot to include that as one of the listed design modifications. I decided to start with a recess underneath the tuning knobs, and if deemed necessary I will cut it out completely.

Nice work on the bass - it looks great!

 

[Hamish MacCleod]

Very, very cool Michael, looking forward to this build.
Rondo

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

Very, very cool Michael, looking forward to this build.
Rondo

Thank you! This one has the potential to be fairly nice.

When I installed my bridge I put it about ¼" too far away from the nut, so now the "claw" holding on to the string can't reach the ball end of the string, even when loosened all the way. The intonation adjustment has plenty of range where it sits, but I have to use regular strings with it, clamped at the headpiece.

I did a little research on double ball strings and found that most manufacturers will publish specs on the distance between balls. This will help in planning the distance between the bridge and the headpiece. I am planning on stringing it with single ball black nylon tape wounds.

 

[reverendrally]

@michaelwayneharwood, I love your concept, construction, timber etc. I'd like to build something similar.

If you'd permit me to be so bold, I think the body shape could still do with a little more work. I feel the concept of it, what I'm yet to feel is the aesthetic of it. Particularly the treble side of the body and the lower leg cutout. It still feels to me like you just chopped it out impromptu rather than carefully planning it into the overall feel of it. This is accented by the fact that it's headless too. It feels to me likes its 98% function and only 2% form. Whereas fender/fullerton designs do form and function evenly and beautifully. That's why they're so enduring.

Course, it's totally up to you... and you can ignore everything I just said if you like.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

@reverendrally - Let me start this rather long winded response by saying that I always assume that posting on a public forum *invites* others to comment. I have great deal of respect for your opinions, as well as many others that post here at TalkBass, even when I disagree with them.

I agree with you that the Fender/Fullerton design is accepted as a standard and that many find it appealing, but I personally do not like it. I used to regularly get grief from my guitar and bass playing brethren for my opinions, and I have learned that it's best to just keep them to myself for the most part.

I have accidentally become the "go to" guy at work in regards to "quick lunch time setup" for my colleagues instruments, and often times I am asked my opinion of the instruments that have been brought to me. One gentleman brought in a guitar for a tune up and told me "Isn't is gorgeous! Come on! You can't tell me it's not the most beautiful guitar you have ever seen!". My response was along the lines of how lovely the finish was, and how the choice of woods was appealing, etc. He kept pushing for me to agree with him, and I kept telling him that the execution of the design was first class, but avoided sharing my opinion on the guitar's aesthetic. He was relentless and tried to corner me with questions like "Don't you think that <insert major guitar manufacturer here> makes awesome looking guitars?". My personal opinion is that <insert major guitar manufacturer here> makes ugly guitars, but it really does not matter what *I* think because my co-worker loves them. I am sincerely glad he has found something he loves, and enjoy his enthusiasm and passion.

This body shape, which I have dubbed "The Chimera", is the result of many, many hours of planning and design, and has gone through many revisions. Prior to my first post sharing my cock-eyed thoughts here on TalkBass I had built several prototypes based on this design, and it's an ongoing process of revision. Initially I took the shapes of instruments that I really like the looks of and incorporated what I felt were the key elements that I find appealing, and then tweaked things here and there. The shape is still being refined as I live with it as my daily player, but the basic form and the aesthetic of it is very appealing to me. I really like the way it looks - the treble side included.

All of that being said this bass is not being built for me, so my opinions on the Chimera body style have no relevance for this build. I was very surprised when the customer asked for this shape specifically. We had a LOT of conversations and looked at a lot of pictures of classic basses, as well as more modern designs. He kept coming back to this shape and was adamant that this is what he wants.

 

[reverendrally]

@reverendrally - Let me start this rather long winded response by saying that I always assume that posting on a public forum *invites* others to comment. I have great deal of respect for your opinions, as well as many others that post here at TalkBass, even when I disagree with them.

I agree with you that the Fender/Fullerton design is accepted as a standard and that many find it appealing, but I personally do not like it. I used to regularly get grief from my guitar and bass playing brethren for my opinions, and I have learned that it's best to just keep them to myself for the most part.

I think you misunderstood me. Personally I'm bored with the fender shape and over it. The point I was making was, it ticks form and function boxes very effectively. That's why it's "enduring". People 'get it' as it were.

...The shape is still being refined as I live with it as my daily player, but the basic form and the aesthetic of it is very appealing to me....

Good, and that's makes sense coz it's your design. I guess I'm trying to offer you a different set of eyes. Also the chance to avoid what I'd called 'tack-on' changes. Course, as you've said, if someone else really wants it, my opinion is not much use. Afterall I believe (like you) that any number of guitar companies build things that look plain awful, yet people happily pay $$$$ for them.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I think you misunderstood me. Personally I'm bored with the fender shape and over it. The point I was making was, it ticks form and function boxes very effectively. That's why it's "enduring". People 'get it' as it were.

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification, and I am sincere in regards to my always being open to feedback!

 

[PDX Mathias]

Thank you! This one has the potential to be fairly nice.

I did a little research on double ball strings and found that most manufacturers will publish specs on the distance between balls. This will help in planning the distance between the bridge and the headpiece. I am planning on stringing it with single ball black nylon tape wounds.

I actually had a hard time finding the exact string length for double ball strings. The only data I could find was for Status strings. They list theirs as 35 ¾" between the inside of each ball-end.
I had a lengthy back-and-forth with LaBella, but ultimately couldn't get them to measure a string for me. I later got a set of double-ball LaBella flat wounds. I just measured them - the total length is 36", and the distance between the inside of each ball-end is 35 ⅝", so a tad shorter than what Status quotes for theirs.

If you want to run single ball black nylon tape wounds, keep in mind that with the Hipshot system you have to cut, then bend the string at a 90 degree angle, to get the headset to clamp the string. Clipping can be a problem with tape wounds, as they probably will unwind the nylon as soon as you cut it, essentially ruining the string. At least this happened with a Fender set I experimented with. I tried coating the area of the cut with superglue (before cutting), and that seemed to hold, but it's a bit of a gamble.

That won't matter that much in my case - as soon as my current bass build is done, I plan to make a new fretless neck for this bass, so I'll just make my new neck a tad (¼" or so) shorter, so the double-ball system will work. After that's done, I'll order a set of LaBella double-ball black nylon tape wound strings.

Oh, and another thing about the Hipshot headset. The drawing makes it a bit vague, but you'll have to drill your neck for the ends of the strings to poke trough, when clamped. They don't have to be trough-holes, but they can be.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

@PDX Mathias - Thanks for the info!

 

[Jonny5bass]

Looks intriguing, I'm in.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

This weekend will not see any actual wood working due to a short stint with some Percoset after a minor surgery, but I made good use of my convalescence by finishing up the concept drawing and ordering the last few remaining items I need for the build. The fret lines are going to follow the same general scheme as the Lady 5Jane, but the "two tone" lines will have rosewood veneer combined with white polystyrene strips. One aspect of the design is to have the fingerboard flow in a continuous line through the entire face, except where interrupted by the pickups and bridge, so rosewood veneer will be laid into the tuner access "cavity".

I did a few experiments with black dye to see what results I can get with popping the grain, but the jury is still out at this point.

 

[eightyearsapril]

The fret lines are going to follow the same general scheme as the Lady 5Jane, but the "two tone" lines will have rosewood veneer combined with white polystyrene strips.

I'm doing something very similar on my kit's fretboard, except with LMI's blue veneer as the accent where you're using white. I'm very curious to see how you do this, as actually doing that is rather abstract to me now.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I'm doing something very similar on my kit's fretboard, except with LMI's blue veneer as the accent where you're using white. I'm very curious to see how you do this, as actually doing that is rather abstract to me now.

My plan is to epoxy white polystyrene strips for the ends and rosewood veneer in the middle something like this: