Yeah, I get it. It's really audible! Inner coils in parallel is my favorite setting on a HH basses so far. I just wanted to know if that is comparable to real single coils hypothetically placed in those spots
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Single+Single vs humbuckers inner coils wired in parallel
- Thread starter SikSan
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Yeah, I get it. It's really audible! Inner coils in parallel is my favorite setting on a HH basses so far. I just wanted to know if that is comparable to real single coils hypothetically placed in those spots
Yeah, I get it. It's really audible! Inner coils in parallel is my favorite setting on a HH basses so far. I just wanted to know if that is comparable to real single coils hypothetically placed in those spots
It's close - how close depends on the construction of the pickups - the more independent the coils are, the closer it is to a pair of single coils.
More or less that's right. But I think there are two distinct factors in your question.
Firstly - A single coil pickup will sound a little different than a humbucker that has been coil split and put in the same position. This is because the magnetic field and other characteristics of the other coil in the humbucker are still influencing the tone, even when the humbucker is coil split. This is the reason why comparing two single coil pickups to two coil split humbuckers in the same positions will sound a little different. Even if the two active coils from the humbuckers are in the same position as the two single coil pickups.
Secondly - two single coil pickups placed right next to each other will sound and operate the same as a humbucker. If you move the single coils further apart, the tone changes because of the comb filtering. And that's why the "inner" pair of coils on two coil tapped humbuckers will sound different than the "outer" pair of coils on the same pickups.
I thought the difference between inner/outer coils combos sound is all about their actual placing along the strings.
Aren't those singles should be wired in one or another way to act as humbucker? Or does it mean that comb filtering occurs even betweeen 2 independent singles placed further away from each other?
I keep asking dumb questions, cuz it's pretty educating, but thx for elaborating on this!
Comb filtering happens regardless of if you're talking about two single coil pickups, or two humbuckers that are split to act like single coil pickups. The difference between the "inner" and "outer" switch positions in your diagram from the last page is purely because the active coils are in different positions. Does that make sense?
yes, that's the idea that was in my head for all this time, but I was confused with comb filtering thing so I imagined that this effect may intensify as long as you change the distance between the actual coils and that changes the tone as well. I guess I failed to interpret that info correctly.
Initially I just wanted to confirm or deny the idea that if my "to go" sound is inner coils in parallel I can simply swap "not so good" buckers with some "better sounding" singles and get the sound I'm typically after
If you like the inner coil position now, then a pair of single coils in your current pickup positions will be similar.
Of course, there will be differences if the new pickups are significantly different than the coil-split old pickups. But in general the theory holds true.
Of course, there will be differences if the new pickups are significantly different than the coil-split old pickups. But in general the theory holds true.
In a jazz bass type scenario the two pickups, when at full volume together act essentially as a humbucker, in terms of combining the output of both pickups while canceling hum. Using the coils outlined in red in the OP's diagram shows two coils wide apart which are one north and one south oriented, so act like to single coils canceling hum at full volume and acting like a humbucker. Depending on the outputs of the bridge and neck pickups, they should more or less operate and sound like two single coils in the same positions.
All of the possible influences mentioned so far, such as the effect of having an out of circuit second pickup alongside the in circuit one, inside a humbucker casing, will apply, but in general with the coils splitting illustrated, you're getting approximately the same effect as two singles in the same positions. Except that the output, magnet strength, number of windings, depth of the coils, and other structural factors might produce some variances.
All of the possible influences mentioned so far, such as the effect of having an out of circuit second pickup alongside the in circuit one, inside a humbucker casing, will apply, but in general with the coils splitting illustrated, you're getting approximately the same effect as two singles in the same positions. Except that the output, magnet strength, number of windings, depth of the coils, and other structural factors might produce some variances.
If it’s not leading the thread too far astray, I wonder if it would be relevant to mention the design of the Alembic Series I and II basses, which feature two single coil pickups placed at some distance apart, with a dummy coil between them.
ok, one more question I'm still not sure about:
Does inner coils connection in parallel actually add some "flavor" to the tone? Or 2 push-pulls turning off each bucker outer coils will be the same? (like 2 independent pickups with it's own volume knob)
Because wiring inner coil in series will definitely change the tone, right?
I have done some direct comparisons of single single vs split humbuckers with the coils located in the same spot.
Peavey Foundation. It originally had 2 Super Ferrites roughly in the 70s J bass spots (28" and 32" from the nut). I decided to mod this one with 2 Toaster pickups, but did the routing to keep the outer coils in the same spots as the original Super Ferrites. For fun, I wired up a switch to split to the outer coils and compared that tone against another stock Foundation with the Super Ferrites.
Overall--
-Super Ferrites are a somewhat aggressive single coil, decently big bass and a bright, but not harsh top end.
-Toasters in humbucker mode have just a touch more output than the Super Ferrites, but also have less highs and more mids. Pretty similar bass output.
-Toaster pickups in single coil mode have slightly lower output than the Super Ferrites. They are a little thinner sounding, too. The highs are pretty similar, but less mids and lows.
Since I already have other Foundations, Dynas and Js with pickups in those J positions, I decided to try splitting to the inside coils for something different. That tonality was very similar to a passive Stingray tonality, which makes sense, as the active coils are very close to where a Stingray pickup is located with just a touch more of the comb filtering and phasing from the coils being a little further apart vs a typical Stingray pickup. The inner coils on this bass are 29" and 31" from the nut, so the center point is about 30". A typical Stingray pickup is centered at about 30.5" from the nut with coils at 30" and 31" from the nut.
It sounds great and unique relative to my other basses, so that is how I kept it.
Peavey Foundation. It originally had 2 Super Ferrites roughly in the 70s J bass spots (28" and 32" from the nut). I decided to mod this one with 2 Toaster pickups, but did the routing to keep the outer coils in the same spots as the original Super Ferrites. For fun, I wired up a switch to split to the outer coils and compared that tone against another stock Foundation with the Super Ferrites.
Overall--
-Super Ferrites are a somewhat aggressive single coil, decently big bass and a bright, but not harsh top end.
-Toasters in humbucker mode have just a touch more output than the Super Ferrites, but also have less highs and more mids. Pretty similar bass output.
-Toaster pickups in single coil mode have slightly lower output than the Super Ferrites. They are a little thinner sounding, too. The highs are pretty similar, but less mids and lows.
Since I already have other Foundations, Dynas and Js with pickups in those J positions, I decided to try splitting to the inside coils for something different. That tonality was very similar to a passive Stingray tonality, which makes sense, as the active coils are very close to where a Stingray pickup is located with just a touch more of the comb filtering and phasing from the coils being a little further apart vs a typical Stingray pickup. The inner coils on this bass are 29" and 31" from the nut, so the center point is about 30". A typical Stingray pickup is centered at about 30.5" from the nut with coils at 30" and 31" from the nut.
It sounds great and unique relative to my other basses, so that is how I kept it.
I might not be reading your question correctly, but if you're asking about putting the two inner coils in parallel vs putting them in series, then yes there will be a huge difference in tone.
The relationship between the coils (series or parallel) can be independent of the controls. You can use push/pull pots to coil split the humbuckers and still use parallel wiring between the pickups.
No, I'm aware about the parallel/series differences. My question was about, let's say, inner coils of 2 humbuckers with 1 vol and 5 way switch that allows to run those coils in parallel vs inner coils of 2 separate humbuckers with separate vol/push-pull knob that allows to disable outer coils. Coils parallel wiring vs coil cutting, or tapping? Not sure what is the right term
Does it make any difference?When you coil tap a humbucker, you turn off one of it's coils, and leave the other coil active and in the circuit. There's no difference other than that. Two humbuckers with coil tapping active will behave just like two single coils located in the same spot in the circuit. It doesn't really matter if you're using a 5 way switch to select coils/pickups, or push/pull pots.
It would be possible to put two humbuckers in the bass, and wire them in parallel with each other, each with their own volume pots, and then use push/pull pots to coil tap them and end up with the same "inner coils in parallel" mode in your diagram above. The fact that you're doing it with push/pulls vs a 5 way switch doesn't change the circuit. It would sound the same.
Coil tapping/coil splitting is just a way to select which coils are turned on in the circuit. It's a separate concept from the relationship between the coils (series or parallel). The method you use to select coils (switch, push/pull pot, etc) doesn't impact the end result, it's just a means of turning things on and off.
On the other hand, using two volume controls instead of just one master volume will change the tone slightly, in a typical passive bass, since the two volume controls will load the circuit more than the single volume control (assuming the same value pots are being used). In a typical active bass with the volume controls on the active side of the preamp, or in a bass with active pickups, this won't make a difference though.
It would be possible to put two humbuckers in the bass, and wire them in parallel with each other, each with their own volume pots, and then use push/pull pots to coil tap them and end up with the same "inner coils in parallel" mode in your diagram above. The fact that you're doing it with push/pulls vs a 5 way switch doesn't change the circuit. It would sound the same.
Coil tapping/coil splitting is just a way to select which coils are turned on in the circuit. It's a separate concept from the relationship between the coils (series or parallel). The method you use to select coils (switch, push/pull pot, etc) doesn't impact the end result, it's just a means of turning things on and off.
On the other hand, using two volume controls instead of just one master volume will change the tone slightly, in a typical passive bass, since the two volume controls will load the circuit more than the single volume control (assuming the same value pots are being used). In a typical active bass with the volume controls on the active side of the preamp, or in a bass with active pickups, this won't make a difference though.
So, in the end parallel wiring for certain coils does not affect the sound, unlike series wiring, which affects tone and output level, wiring inner coils in parallel just offers a convenient way to turn on/off those coils in one click, correct?
I don't think we're quite on the same page yet. It's hard to say "parallel affects the tone" without knowing what you're comparing it to. Parallel will sound different than series. A single pickup (or coil) by itself will sound different than two pickups (or two coils in the same pickup) in parallel.
Any time you have two coils, they're going to be either in series or parallel. There isn't some "other" third option. Does that make sense?
Any time you have two coils, they're going to be either in series or parallel. There isn't some "other" third option. Does that make sense?
Default setup of the bass was 2 independent humbuckers with separate vol knobs. So if the whole scheme wasn't changed to master volume and 5 way switch to allow different coil combinations I could just replace vol pots with push-pulls to achieve inner coils mode, right? So it would not sound any different compared to inner coils wired in parallel via the 5 way switch, or would it?
You are right! You could wire your two humbuckers with separate volume controls in parallel with each other, then use push/pull volume pots to coil tap and give you the ability to essentially convert either humbucker into a single coil pickup. Then you'd be able to get both humbuckers in parallel, either humbucker solo'd, one humbucker with the other as a single coil in parallel, both as single coils in parallel, or either as a single coil solo'd.
