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Double Bass Small combo amp vs powered speaker

M

Macher

Aug 29, 2006
81
0
Montreal
#1
Hey,

I'm looking for a new upright amplification system that is small and portable. I was going to buy a GK MB150 but thought about the idea of a powered speaker, a JBL EON 15' for example.

These things go for 700$, have mutiple inputs so you could blend a mic and the pickup (through my Fishman pro platinum EQ first) and they have a super wide freq range, with the mids a UB requires. Right? Plus they're loud, super resistant, and you can use it as a monitor for other stuff..

Anyone uses a powered speaker as permanent 'amp'? What would be the downside?
 
#4
Macher said:
Hey,

I'm looking for a new upright amplification system that is small and portable. I was going to buy a GK MB150 but thought about the idea of a powered speaker, a JBL EON 15' for example.

These things go for 700$, have mutiple inputs so you could blend a mic and the pickup (through my Fishman pro platinum EQ first) and they have a super wide freq range, with the mids a UB requires. Right? Plus they're loud, super resistant, and you can use it as a monitor for other stuff..

Anyone uses a powered speaker as permanent 'amp'? What would be the downside?
Click to expand...

There are several players that have had good results with the DPA 4099B into, the Headway EDB-1 driving a QSC K10. That's a more expensive rig. The Pro Plat will certainly drive a JBL, but I'd take a look at the QSC based on what others have said in these threads. My own gear is pretty different, as I use a TC 112 driven by a Walter Woods. The Thunderchild looks like a P.A. speaker but it's voiced for bass.

Ric
 
#5
I posted a thread about this topic a while back probably 2 years ago. Wasn't feeling much love from the TalkBass community for powered monitor speakers.

My current electric rig is Fender Jazz into Behringer BDI21 into QSC K12, and it sounds great and it's loud enough to use in a packed club without PA support.

My upright bass rig is Fishman Full Circle into F-Deck preamp into QSC K12, and it's the amp I've always wanted.

My jazz organ rig is Nord C2 straight into QSC K12, but since this is talkBASS, nobody probably cares about that oo much!!
 
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#6
I don't have anything against powered monitors---I just think that they don't sound so good with bass. I think going with a micro head like the EA Doubler and a small cab is much more versatile. I use 3 cabs depending on the gig. For small gigs I bring my little 9# 8" cab. I use this for 50% of my gigs. If I need more oomph I use my 12" cab. For louder gigs I use a Thunderchild 12 or 15. I just think that it's good to have a versatile setup. And a setup like this sounds WAYYY better than a powered monitor. And if you ever want to play electric bass, the powered monitors don't cut it.
 
#7
I purchased a QSC K10 and a Headway preamp with an AMT mic and have used it a few times over the last year or so. I do think that the sound is very good, very true. I originally decided to go this route to keep my mic in the chain and avoid a bass amp sound through a pick up. I have been forced a few times to use a bass amp, usually just a regular old combo amp, and was surprise how well it does the job. It is not as transparent as the K10 but in some ways, transparency isn't what cuts through the mix if everyone else is amped up as well. The K10 definitely sounds just like my bass but, in that truth, I also have the same problems as all bassist have such as diminishing volume as we play up in the higher registers. Amps kind of take care of that and I find that I sound a bit more consistent up the fingerboard. I haven't made a change to an amp but I have considered it. Even when the K10 seems pumped up and loud I still have drummers ask if I can get some more volume. I did get a pole to put the sound up at my head but that's not balanced because what seems loud to me is not as loud to the rest of the band. A really great amp, mid height, right next to the drummer may just be the best for louder gigs. I think a mic could still go to FOH which would preserve some of the true acoustic vibe...
 
#9
I just did two nights with my carved Lowendall upright, with a Fishman Full Circle- in different settings. First was with a quartet- in a room, less than ideal placement of the bass about 6 feet away from a very open tuned Gretsch 18" kick, and a young, strong drummer- I was using my tried and true GK MB-150. It was wolf tone city at any volume. I persuaded the drummer to place a muting device in front of the kick, and it eliminated a lot of that problem. I still do not hear what I want to from that amp, as reliable as it is.

Last night, I played as a sub for a friend in a duo setting. I used his Behringer combo amp. It sucks next to the GK, but it saved me from carrying one piece of gear. The pa was two JBL EON 15's. Powered. A small mixer was right next to me, and for the last set- I played direct, no preamp through the passive mixer, through those powered Eons. WOW! It was incredible! Big, full low end, and totally pleasing, smooth high frequencies. My GK NEVER sounds that good.
I'm seriously considering buying one of those, or a similar powered pa speaker.
 
#10
LHbassist said:
Last night, I played as a sub for a friend in a duo setting. I used his Behringer combo amp. It sucks next to the GK, but it saved me from carrying one piece of gear. The pa was two JBL EON 15's. Powered. A small mixer was right next to me, and for the last set- I played direct, no preamp through the passive mixer, through those powered Eons. WOW! It was incredible! Big, full low end, and totally pleasing, smooth high frequencies. My GK NEVER sounds that good.I'm seriously considering buying one of those, or a similar powered pa speaker.
Click to expand...

I just purchased a QSC K8 and although I like it's potability and power, I haven't been able to "finesse" the same quality of sound from it, that I can easily get from either of my Walter Woods amps, into either a Euphonic Audio VL 108 or Audio Kinesis TC 112. Using a Headway EDB-1 get's a nice sound from the K8, but I'm beginning to think that cabinets like the Thunderchild, Crazy 88, and Big E's are going to take you a lot further, with better range, timbre, and volume. Just my take. What I really need is a small, lightweight, powered cab that's designed for bass, I think that Mike's new cabinets are headed in that direction. :) :D
I'm also wondering if the JBL EON's you were playing through were elevated on poles, as that could make all the difference in the world.
Ric
 
#11
Hi Ric Vice!

The Eons were just offstage, on the floor, angled upwards. The lows were in a word, beautiful. NOT boomy, as most of the 15" bass speaker cabinets I've tried, and owned were. The highs were pleasant, not harsh as with my GK MB 150. I have a Euphonic VL-210. But, it's unpowered, and 73 pounds. I'll bet that cab sounds great for upright. The whole point is- I LOVE the sound I get using a mic combined with the Fishman Full Circle, in recording situations. I always wonder why I can't get that live. NOW, I know why. The amplification...even those "voiced for bass," simply fall short of the fidelity of full range high fidelity monitors. If you're using small speakers and a low wattage amp- because it's FOR bass- and it still sucks, the alternative is to simply be HEARD, and to be able to hear yourself well enough to play in tune! And this seems to be the best tone I've ever had live.
The Eon is a big speaker. It's 40 pounds. Lighter than any of the unpowered cabs alone that I own, and I own a lot. But I heard what I wanted to hear last night. If I hate it after I lug one around, I'll sell it and go back to a total compromise.
I did try a Mackie 'Thump' cab once,and thought it sounded good, too. Looks like more GAS coming on strong! LOL!

P.S., I just got a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0. I'm playing a gig in Tahoe Saturday night, and will try it with my Euphonic Audio CXL 112. Full range- lots of power... we'll see. I still am going to try to find an EON 15 to mess with.
 
#12
LHbassist said:
Hi Ric Vice!
The Eons were just offstage, on the floor, angled upwards. The lows were in a word, beautiful. NOT boomy, as most of the 15" bass speaker cabinets I've tried, and owned were. The highs were pleasant, not harsh as with my GK MB 150.
Click to expand...

Hi LH Bassist!

I owned the MB 150E and absolutely hated the sound, so I know where you're coming from there. It's interesting that they weren't elevated, but good to know!

LHbassist said:
I have a Euphonic VL-210. But, it's unpowered, and 73 pounds. I'll bet that cab sounds great for upright. The whole point is...even those "voiced for bass," simply fall short of the fidelity of full range high fidelity monitors......
Click to expand...

I played through a VL 210 that Ken Jung owned, in 1997, you're right on the mark there, that cabinet weighs a ton and takes a whole lot of power to drive. I love the way it sounds on stage, but those extended lows it puts out, don't travel very far of the bandstand.

Since you've probably never used a TC 112 as they aren't that common, I have the advantage of comparing a powered speaker to the Thunderchild, and frankly, there's no comparison, the TC 112 wins hands down with my amps and pickup. It has some of the design characteristics of a P.A. cabinet, but it's way better. IMHO

LHbassist said:
.......The Eon is a big speaker. It's 40 pounds. Lighter than any of the unpowered cabs alone that I own, and I own a lot. But I heard what I wanted to hear last night. If I hate it after I lug one around, I'll sell it and go back to a total compromise.
Click to expand...

You should test drive a QSC K 10, it's lighter and has a narrower dispersion pattern that helps with feedback. Several TB members use one.


LHbassist said:
I did try a Mackie 'Thump' cab once,and thought it sounded good, too. Looks like more GAS coming on strong! LOL!
Click to expand...

Well, you're in good company there as Larry Grenadier has a flyer in his road contract for a Mackie.
 
#13
Hi Ric! Well, as it turns out- due to some factors like me not having a suitable carrying bag yet for my Shuttle 9.0 (I ordered one- it'll be here Tuesday) I decided to bring my GK MB-150 to Tahoe last night. I'm glad I did. I worked perfectly in the situation I was in. BIG open convention room, controlled tuning of the drummer's kit- tasteful playing, and it sounded very good- despite my total dislike for the high frequency representation, and lack of a real low frequency push when playing on the 'E' string- of that combo. I think I will try to find a suitable coaxial driver with additional low frequency extension, for the GK, as the highs sound harsh and unpleasant with the stock speaker, and no tweeter. I must state that two things are true of the GK MB- it's a very portable little box, and it gets loud in the right rooms- in the right settings. It appears to be about half the size and weight of the EA CXL-112/ GB 9.0 combination.
GK certainly was right on the money in understanding the needs of a working upright bassist- with regards to portability and size.
I'm wondering what a small 15 combo amp would sound like with my bass. I played through a Mesa Diesel 15 cabinet (not small) about 5 years ago that killed.
I have an Acoustic B-200 1-15 combo. Great, cheap amp for electric. I tried it once with my Lowendall- The limiter in it makes it unsuitable for upright.
I tried a TC Electronic BG-250 with electric bass at GC a month ago- I loved it. I wonder what my upright would sound like using it.
 
#14
LH, I think you're going to have a hard time finding any kind of alternative 12" driver for the little GK combo. What Bob Gallien did was he figured out to cram gig-worthy sound into one cubic foot. To function inside such a small box, the driver needs to have a heavy cone, which partially accounts for the lack of high end.

Oddly enough, because the GK speaker sacrifices sensitivity in order to achieve its size goals, you can get more oomph out of a smaller diameter, modern driver such as the Faital 8"er, in a comparable sized box. With some creative baffle work, you could put the Faital in there, but the port will be tricky.
 
#15
I like powered monitors and use a EV ZXa1, with a Headway EDB-1. It's more than loud enough for the kind of gigs I do. I've used it with electric bass as well. but it's shy on low end and only good for really low volume electric gigs. Waddya want? It's an 8 inch speaker.


I've also many times just used a Mackie SRM 150. It has no content below I think about 150 hz, but it adds a lot of top end.

I like the powered monitor approach. One piece, light and very portable, you can stick it behind you on a pole. It works really well for me because with the monitor behind me, and up, I can hear my intonation really well and I avoid the tendency to hit too hard.

A bigger powered monitor would of course get more volume and better low end.
 
#16
fdeck said:
LH, I think you're going to have a hard time finding any kind of alternative 12" driver for the little GK combo. What Bob Gallien did was he figured out to cram gig-worthy sound into one cubic foot. To function inside such a small box, the driver needs to have a heavy cone, which partially accounts for the lack of high end.

Oddly enough, because the GK speaker sacrifices sensitivity in order to achieve its size goals, you can get more oomph out of a smaller diameter, modern driver such as the Faital 8"er, in a comparable sized box. With some creative baffle work, you could put the Faital in there, but the port will be tricky.
Click to expand...

Hi Fdeck... I'm considering that likelihood. I know that the keyboard MB box goes pretty low- and handles the same wattage- and it's a coax speaker. Every one of those little boxes I've heard sounds killer with an electric keyboard. The issue for me is twofold- getting both the real bass low end at 40-100 hz. that a 12 in that small a box might not ever achieve, and the nice top end only an hf driver can produce.
I played said gig on Saturday with a keyboard player using a Mackie SM350 V2 for his boards. It is VERY lightweight. The PA mains were two old Mackie SM450's, which I lifted up onto the speaker stands. It's a good thing I was a construction laborer for years, that's all I'll say. Too damn heavy. I want to go to my local GC and look at a SM450 V2, with the neo drivers. If it is the 40 pounds they claim it is, it might be worth considering. Yeah it's bigger...but the sound considerations are part of the equation. I would not think of using it for electric- but the amplification needs of upright are totally different anyway.
 
#18
joelmonet said:
You just have to check the frequency response of the loudspeaker. If it starts any higher than 30 Hz, keep looking. This setup works great for me
Click to expand...

Joel,
I'm just curious where you found a Powered Speaker that goes down to 30 Hz, that dosen't way over 40 lbs. Even the finest of the transmission line Euphonic Audio Cabinets only went to 38 Hz. That cabinet, the VL 210 weighed over 70 lbs! The QSC K 12 only goes to 48 Hz and weighs 41 lbs. Mackie TH-15's go to 50 HZ. An Electro Voice Z5 will go to 58 Hz. Even the JBL EON15P-1 only hits 47 Hz. What's your secret weapon? All that low bass response takes serious amplifier power, creates difficulty with feedback, and dies off pretty close to the stage IME, IMHO.

:). :D

Ric
 
#19
joelmonet said:
You just have to check the frequency response of the loudspeaker. If it starts any higher than 30 Hz, keep looking. This setup works great for me
Click to expand...

I agree with Ric. Now, frequency response as measured by whom and by what method? Speaker cabinet specs, and for that matter, amplifier specs, in the musical instrument world tend to be only marginally useful. A frequency response spec is virtually meaningless without a tolerance, such as 30 Hz - 20 kHz, +/- 6 dB. If a company says that their cab extends down to 30 Hz, the crucial piece of information is how many dB down the response is at that frequency. All cabs have some response down there. The more reputable companies, if they don't include tolerances, will usually spec the response within the range that it's reasonably flat but that's a squishy criterion. Take this from a guy who has a pair of speakers for music that have useable response down to 12 Hz. Yes, 12 Hz.

Keep in mind that the fundamental of the E-string is 41 Hz. If you're playing a typical four-string dB, you don't need much response below that at all.

I'll be very happy when the frequency response of bass cabs are spec'ed objectively via on- and off-axis anechoic or [This invalid link has been removed]-based measures. I'm not holding my breath! ;)
 
#20
I agree also. Getting down that low is really costly in terms of size and weight and power. There's always a trade off to be made. A small combo amp implies, to me,. low volume and settings where you're augmenting the acoustic sound of your bass, not using the amp to provide ALL the sound. I dont know a small combo amp or powered monitor that gets down to 30 hz.

(just for information, in case the OP didn't know, your low E string is at 41 hz, and a low B on an electric bass is 27 hz)

And in my experience, getting down that low is often way more trouble than it's worth. I gig with acoustic guitars a lot, and frequencies that low cause a lot of feedback problems on the bandstand. Other bands, other instruments, it might not be as much of a problem.
 

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