Double Bass Small Diaphram Condensers For Double Bass

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I believe the key point for using condenser mics with double bass is the capsule does not have to be "large" to capture excellent tone. The popular perception is the microphone must have a large diaphragm to accurately capture the double bass sound waves. That perception is inaccurate. Small and tiny capsules can also do an excellent job, especially in a live setting where sonic differences from large capsules are less distinct.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

For a slightly cheaper and still compact Schoeps alternative (2x5 cms, 33grams), there is the CCM line of compact, integrated mics. You can even get it with a permanent 5 m cable attached. Here in the omni version, for close micing. But the price I saw was some 1800 dollars.
CCM 2 | SCHOEPS Mikrofone

 

[Ric Vice]

It is confusing! For example, here are a bunch of mics reviewed as "best" SDCs. All of them are giant compared to the tiny DPAs etc.

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View attachment 3699290

And I think for good reason most of those microphones i.e. AKG, Neumann, etc are pretty expensive propositions and have not typically been used for live performance. Where we know that the DPA 4099, Xlson, Remic, Audio Technica 35/350/, AMT,
and even the Countryman ( Crown GLM 10/20 discontunued) have to a greater or lesser success. I'd also posit that there aren't that many second party, non evasive, mounting systems for these microphones. Which is nearly as important as the microphone itself.
The ones I'm famalliar with are the Explore Audio H-Clamp which makes it very difficult to play arco with, the Gollihur On Stage Mount which doesn't work on some basses, and AMT's tailpiece mount which very good, but proprietary to their microphones. So
the easiest ones to mount are the DPA 4099 Devote Core, the Remic 5400 series, the Audio Techinca, AMT (with a tailpiece mount) and the Countryman. Just an observation.

 

[Ric Vice]

For a slightly cheaper and still compact Schoeps alternative (2x5 cms, 33grams), there is the CCM line of compact, integrated mics. You can even get it with a permanent 5 m cable attached. Here in the omni version, for close micing. But the price I saw was some 1800 dollars.
CCM 2 | SCHOEPS Mikrofone

That's why I'm really interested in seeing if the Line Audio CM3/CM4's will work, because they cost so much less and kkendall is using for live performance mixed with a pickup.

 

[LaFaro01]

That's why I'm really interested in seeing if the Line Audio CM3/CM4's will work, because they cost so much less and kkendall is using for live performance mixed with a pickup.

If you are looking for cheaper replacement for the Schoeps mics, you could check out the Link Removedof Haun, a little german factory building very nice (and not sooo expensive) "sound converters"
I'm not sure hwo to get them in the US to check them out, but they are really nice...

 

[Ric Vice]

If you are looking for cheaper replacement for the Schoeps mics, you could check out the Link Removedof Haun, a little german factory building very nice (and not sooo expensive) "sound converters"
I'm not sure hwo to get them in the US to check them out, but they are really nice...

Thing is the CM4’s from Line Audio only cost $153.00 shipped from europe. Not to shabby.

 

[Wasnex]

And I think for good reason most of those microphones i.e. AKG, Neumann, etc are pretty expensive propositions and have not typically been used for live performance. Where we know that the DPA 4099, Xlson, Remic, Audio Technica 35/350/, AMT,
and even the Countryman ( Crown GLM 10/20 discontunued) have to a greater or lesser success. I'd also posit that there aren't that many second party, non evasive, mounting systems for these microphones. Which is nearly as important as the microphone itself.
The ones I'm famalliar with are the Explore Audio H-Clamp which makes it very difficult to play arco with, the Gollihur On Stage Mount which doesn't work on some basses, and AMT's tailpiece mount which very good, but proprietary to their microphones. So
the easiest ones to mount are the DPA 4099 Devote Core, the Remic 5400 series, the Audio Techinca, AMT (with a tailpiece mount) and the Countryman. Just an observation.

The mic comparison @rickwolff posted Incredible MIC COMPARISON BY SWEETWATER with audio clips got me wondering if the ATM350A will fit in the DPA mount BC4099 bass mount. I found one video that makes it look like there is a collar on the DPA goose neck that locks it into the mount. If this is the case I guess the answer is no.

In the comparison video, I thought the DPA sounded better than the ATM350A but I own ATM350As. Also I didn't feel it was really a fair comparison because placement was limited on the ATM350a due to the clip and the short 5" goose neck. An optional 9" goose neck is available if anyone is curious.
9"

5"

 

[Wasnex]

For a slightly cheaper and still compact Schoeps alternative (2x5 cms, 33grams), there is the CCM line of compact, integrated mics. You can even get it with a permanent 5 m cable attached. Here in the omni version, for close micing. But the price I saw was some 1800 dollars.
CCM 2 | SCHOEPS Mikrofone

The Shure KSM141 is supposedly patterned after the Schoeps CMC65. They are mechanically switchable between omni and cardioid. The KSM141 are well reviewed mics, but I can't say how close the are the Schoeps. Obviously way cheaper.

 

[Ric Vice]

Shure's are very nice microphones. The principal reason I'm looking at the Line Audio CM3/4 is that their tiny, very lightweight, and cost less than anything but the Beringher.

I owned a Audio Technica 35 when they first were introduced. I used it in conjunction with my Fishman Bass Blender and it sounded great. At the time I didn't know better not to put the microphone right over the f holes so it was pretty boomy until I figured that out. I like the 9" gooseneck that would allow you to attach it to the tailpiece and run it up in between the bridge feet to the sweet spot. It did feed back but with something like the Headway EDB-2 or a Grace Designs Felix you could likely tame that issue.

Here's a couple of pictures of the CM3 it's tiny, light, inespensive and needs someone to design a mini gooseneck for it like the DPA.

 

[neddyrow]

I think I posted on another thread about my recording setup that surprisingly worked pretty well for a home recording.

I was planning on just using my AT 4033 for our home recording that we were also using for vocals. We used a Shure SM 81 for the acoustic instruments. One night I was messing around with my tracks and I put the SM 81 on the treble side and the AT 4033 on the bass side.

I was surprised at how great the 81 worked. We ended up using it as a majority of the mix when mixing down the tracks.

so if you know someone who’s got one, I’d add that to the list of mics to try.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Shure's are very nice microphones. The principal reason I'm looking at the Line Audio CM3/4 is that their tiny, very lightweight, and cost less than anything but the Beringher.

I owned a Audio Technica 35 when they first were introduced. I used it in conjunction with my Fishman Bass Blender and it sounded great. At the time I didn't know better not to put the microphone right over the f holes so it was pretty boomy until I figured that out. I like the 9" gooseneck that would allow you to attach it to the tailpiece and run it up in between the bridge feet to the sweet spot. It did feed back but with something like the Headway EDB-2 or a Grace Designs Felix you could likely tame that issue.

Here's a couple of pictures of the CM3 it's tiny, light, inespensive and needs someone to design a mini gooseneck for it like the DPA.

View attachment 3699795 View attachment 3699797

Based on the photo of this mic in your hand, it's a bit shorter than standard Small Diaphragm Condenser mics. For mounting on a double bass, I'd call this a mid-sized mic. Tiny would be about the length of the capsule grill slots on the right side of the photo. Think lapel / lavaliere mic = "tiny." That form factor / weight would have the least impact on instrument resonance compared to the CM3/4 and other standard mid-sized and larger mics. Presuming a simple, lightweight mount.

 

[Wasnex]

I think I posted on another thread about my recording setup that surprisingly worked pretty well for a home recording.

I was planning on just using my AT 4033 for our home recording that we were also using for vocals. We used a Shure SM 81 for the acoustic instruments. One night I was messing around with my tracks and I put the SM 81 on the treble side and the AT 4033 on the bass side.

I was surprised at how great the 81 worked. We ended up using it as a majority of the mix when mixing down the tracks.

so if you know someone who’s got one, I’d add that to the list of mics to try.

The SM81 is supposedly ruler flat from 20hz-20khz. I have heard several audio techs joke that they wouldn't use it for anything other than a measurement mic. It's actually my favorite for mic'ing high hat of all things.

Definitely worth a try on UB, however be mindful SM81 should have some degree of proximity effect, so it won't be ruler flat when close mic'ing.

 

[Happy Steve]

Let's throw this one into the mix. The main downside is the mini-xlr connector, so BYO cable or adaptor...

 

[Ric Vice]

For

Based on the photo of this mic in your hand, it's a bit shorter than standard Small Diaphragm Condenser mics. For mounting on a double bass, I'd call this a mid-sized mic. Tiny would be about the length of the capsule grill slots on the right side of the photo. Think lapel / lavaliere mic = "tiny." That form factor / weight would have the least impact on instrument resonance compared to the CM3/4 and other standard mid-sized and larger mics. Presuming a simple, lightweight mount.

Ok Then That's What It Is, "a rose by anyother name is still a rose" and this microphone sounds wonderful. In the realm of things, tiny would be the Country Man that Povl uses, I had the Crown GLM 10, so I'm not going for tiny, because it didn't sound all that great on my bass.
I guess then small would be the Remic 5400 Red and Remic 5400 LB, because the capsule is very small, as is the DPA 4099 Dvote Core. I think perhaps I send Line Audio an inquiry as to the possiblilties of making a CM with a Hypercardioid, pattern. Probably to expensive to R&D but
it's worth a shot. The Xlson is also apparently a medium sized condenser, it's a bit longer and has a bigger diameter.

 

[Ric Vice]

Let's throw this one into the mix. The main downside is the mini-xlr connector, so BYO cable or adaptor...
View attachment 3700055

Ok, what's the price and have you used it for live performance? Both the Xlson and the Line Audio use a standard XLR so I'm thinking the Audix is smaller than a CM3.

 

[Reiska]

the Explore Audio H-Clamp which makes it very difficult to play arco with,

This is not the case with my clamp, bass and positioning, bows just fine. I recall you mentioning that the clamp didn`t fit your bass very well?

 

[Happy Steve]

Ok, what's the price and have you used it for live performance? Both the Xlson and the Line Audio use a standard XLR so I'm thinking the Audix is smaller than a CM3.

I prefer the Remic green, the Audix M1250 is a little lost in the mix when I have tried it live (no drummer). I have a new position to try, pointing down pretty much at the sound post, wrapped in a small piece of foam and held to the tailpiece side of the bridge with a rubber band. It is very light (16gm) and feels secure. The sound in that position is more 'forward' and might work better.
Price-wise, I got a pair second hand for approx 200 US.

Yes, definitely smaller - 12mm in diameter.

Here is the freq curve (I think mine is cardioid)

 

[Ric Vice]

This is not the case with my clamp, bass and positioning, bows just fine. I recall you mentioning that the clamp didn`t fit your bass very well?

It falls off because my Mirecourt 5/8 Bass has a flat-back, with sloping shoulders and a slanted back.

 

[Ric Vice]

I prefer the Remic green, the Audix M1250 is a little lost in the mix when I have tried it live (no drummer)..................

Yes, definitely smaller - 12mm in diameter.

Here is the freq curve (I think mine is cardioid)
View attachment 3700100

Interesting, The Remic Green is a great microphone easy to mount and even easier to remove. Steve I seem to remember you use a EA Doubler is that correct? If so how do you set it or if not what do you use? The Remic Green is tricky to EQ back to the an amp great FOH IME.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Sanken CU-32. That's what Grammy winner Jim Anderson used on me all of the time