I've never seen a thread with so much poo rubbed on it..... I don't care what genre it is, check out "four80east".
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Smooth Jazz for Beginners
- Thread starter LowNotes1
- Start date
You guys still at it, huh?
...late period Coltrane is still dissed as anti-Jazz (it doesn't "swing", there's no ii-V7 turnarounds, blah etc).
Most '70s Jazz Fusion I have heard/bought sounds nothing like Bitches Brew.
I would guess some musicians (tired of the same old Standards) were happy to try their wares on some new, different tunes. So, Bossa Nova Jazz became a sub-genre.
YMMV.
See below...
At first, "purists/critics" did not think Bebop was "Jazz". "Jazz" at the time was SWING Bands (regardless of vocals). It was that time's Pop music. Bebop was a reaction against that. In time, Bebop was accepted.
...late period Coltrane is still dissed as anti-Jazz (it doesn't "swing", there's no ii-V7 turnarounds, blah etc).
Unless it's very early Weather Report-
Most '70s Jazz Fusion I have heard/bought sounds nothing like Bitches Brew.
It's Bossa Nova, right? From what I recall, Brasilian music filtered into the US & became quite popular in the '60s(?).
I would guess some musicians (tired of the same old Standards) were happy to try their wares on some new, different tunes. So, Bossa Nova Jazz became a sub-genre.
Swank is OK...it is a word/description that, to me, is anti-Smooth.
YMMV.
It depends on where his interests lie of course. Most of the standards that instructors would use to begin teaching jazz aren't from Coleman, but they aren't from any of the other folks you've listed either. This has nothing to do with the validity of smooth jazz.
I don't know that anyone has said that, but I'd have to go back and reread to be sure. I know I haven't said anything like that. Walking bass is just a style of playing, and learning to do it well requires a lot of dedication and practice. If that's what the OP wants to do, then he will serve himself best to get started practicing such immediately.
Two points:
What I have gotten out of this anti-smooth jazz sentiment is that most people consider ONLY bebop to be the accepted standard of what is jazz. If it is big band (especially with vocals) then it is to be considered the "pop" music of that era. And yes, you are right. Bebop horrified a lot of "purists" at the time. Now it is the mainstream for jazz afficianados.
In regards to Bossa, two things happened: American jazz artists liked it and were able to adapt it...but the thing you did not mention is that most of the early innovators like Jobim and even Sergio mendes were well versed in not only Jazz, but classical. That is why their music is so lush and well orchestrated. These guys were not just ethic folk musicians playing their own music in a vacumn. Bossa Nova means "new sound", more or less. it was fully modern at the time.
I agree, but as I read the OP it says noting about walking, it asks specifically about smooth jazz. Somewhere in this thread walking bass was mentioned. Can't remember the post.
Someone up there mentioned that smooth jazz would be fairly useless for learning walking bass lines. I can't say I disagree, just that there is more to jazz then just walking bass lines. You can learn them just by playing blues and early rockabilly...but in smooth jazz you start learning the types of chords, higher-order chords and extensions that are far more common in jazz then just those that are used in rock or pop (which I suspect the anti-smooth jazz crowd believes it to be.)
Steve and Lucas - your last two points are valid, and I think that's where these conversations usually get derailed. Walking bass lines are largely dead anyway in modern jazz music, so I don't define jazz as having to have a walking bass. I do think however that there are those who equate jazz with the "swing" of a walking bass line and ride cymbal, while others just call any form of instrumental music as being jazz. I'm not so much into labeling music types for any other reason than helping to define what we are talking about for the sake of promoting accurate conversation. I started out trying to be Eddie Van Halen when I was 14 years old. That ultimately led me around many different musical paths to where I am today, which is seldom picking up a guitar at all or listening to any rock music that would even closely resemble Van Halen. I'm certainly confident that starting with smooth jazz can enable one to become a better musician and develop a love for their instrument, which could in time branch and lead them into any number of musical directions or styles. Playing music that makes one happy and brings enjoyment is all that matters, except when the person is trying to make the most progress towards a specific goal in the shortest amount of time possible. If that's the case here, and the OP wants to play "jazz", which most would associate with swinging, walking-bass type stuff (whether it includes bop or not), then smooth jazz isn't the place to start. Re-reading the original post, I still get the feeling from the OP that I'll paraphrase as saying "I want to play jazz, but it sounds way to hard to get right into. I think I should start somewhere easier, like smooth jazz. Who should I check out that will get me started." So, it's that premise that I disagree with. nothing more, and nothing less.
If the intent of the OP is to learn trad jazz as soon as possible, then the only way (IMHO) is to start taking lessons with a jazz bass instructor ASAP. Of course, that means using the upright in all likelyhood.....
But that requires very serious intent. Jazz is exceedingly hard to learn with no instruction. Some of us have been able to do it, but most of us cannot learn it on our own.
I still think the OP is not all that serious, and just wants to get his feet wet only.....
but since he has not returned to this thread to respond or give more information about his goals....I am starting to wonder. Have we been trolled?
But that requires very serious intent. Jazz is exceedingly hard to learn with no instruction. Some of us have been able to do it, but most of us cannot learn it on our own.
I still think the OP is not all that serious, and just wants to get his feet wet only.....
but since he has not returned to this thread to respond or give more information about his goals....I am starting to wonder. Have we been trolled?
Plenty of blame on me for that.
Spot on. I interpreted this thread that way too. Sort of "I'd like to learn jazz, so maybe smooth jazz would be an easier way to get into it." The problem is that from a bass-playing perspective, they are Night and Day (pun sort of intended). Regardless of my opinion of smooth jazz, the stylistic differences are real.
Just for the record, I'm not a big fan of straight be-bop (Bird, Sonny Stitt, etc.). I much prefer the hard-bop era (~'57-'61-ish); Mingus, Monk, early Sun Ra, Wynton Kelly, Bill Evans, Jazz Messengers, Sam Jones, Mr. P.C., Red Garland, along with the 60s Blue Note style of Wayne Shorter, Bobby Hutcherson...
And I first learned jazz on my own by buying a bunch of Frank Sinatra with Nelson Riddle arrangements, and learned his standards for a starting point. I love Sarah Vaughan, whether with Count Basie's Band or with a trio at the Tivoli. So I don't have the stereotypical position of what jazz is or isn't.
I basically lumped all "bop" with Bebop for brevity's sake (Posting on a cellphone) but yeah, there really is a divide that started in the late 50's, where Bebop branched off (IMHO) into at least three ways: West coast, Hard Bop and Free Jazz.
Frankly, I like them all....but the early bebop, not so much..and that has more to do with the recording quality on those recordings then anything else. I don't own any Charlie Parker or Dizzy albums at all.
Frankly, I like them all....but the early bebop, not so much..and that has more to do with the recording quality on those recordings then anything else. I don't own any Charlie Parker or Dizzy albums at all.
Hey OP, did all this arguing scare you away?
If not....here's my two cents worth.
I care about how music sounds and how I enjoy to play it. I don't care what people want to call it, and I don't care if my experience and tastes are different from someone else's.
There are many TBers who have a passion for jazz that leads them to argue about definitions and so on. You can learn a lot from talking to them, they are all knowledgeable people. But is a detailed discussion of definitions what you want?
If you have a clear idea of the sounds you want to chase, then I suggest you hunt down records and start transcribing them or hunt down transcriptions.
If you want to get an overview of jazz, start with the Wikipedia article, then explore the lists of jazz musicians at the bottom, to get an idea of what is out there. Be aware that a lot of people on this group will argue that many of the names in those lists are not jazz. You've seen some of that already given that Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett are in those lists.
Look for a big band you can join. That will typically expose you to a lot of jazz and the lines will be written out so you can see what is happening. (Of course this assumes you can read music, but if you can't you probably need to learn for this sort of stuff).
Buy a real book and jam through the songs in it with friends, or get the iRealB app for iPhone, iPad or Android, which will give you a computer band to practice with.
Jazz music is a lot of fun. For me it starts with 40's swing...Andrews Sisters, Bing Crosby, Guy Lombardo, Anita O'Day with Gene Krupa...my father's collection of 78rpm records basically. It moved out from there as I played in bands. Something like "Birdland" by Weather Report might be a good one to look at.
Armed with a clear foundation of what you think, you will be in a better place to then engage in 'What is jazz" discussions on TB if that is your thing. And let me tell you there are some guys on TB with REALLY AMAZING resumes.
Oh, one other thing. To many of the jazz heads on TB, bass = upright, and electric is the "slab"...a nasty device that ripped the soul out of music. If you want to pursue jazz all the way, at some stage you will probably need to consider studying double bass.
If not....here's my two cents worth.
I care about how music sounds and how I enjoy to play it. I don't care what people want to call it, and I don't care if my experience and tastes are different from someone else's.
There are many TBers who have a passion for jazz that leads them to argue about definitions and so on. You can learn a lot from talking to them, they are all knowledgeable people. But is a detailed discussion of definitions what you want?
If you have a clear idea of the sounds you want to chase, then I suggest you hunt down records and start transcribing them or hunt down transcriptions.
If you want to get an overview of jazz, start with the Wikipedia article, then explore the lists of jazz musicians at the bottom, to get an idea of what is out there. Be aware that a lot of people on this group will argue that many of the names in those lists are not jazz. You've seen some of that already given that Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett are in those lists.
Look for a big band you can join. That will typically expose you to a lot of jazz and the lines will be written out so you can see what is happening. (Of course this assumes you can read music, but if you can't you probably need to learn for this sort of stuff).
Buy a real book and jam through the songs in it with friends, or get the iRealB app for iPhone, iPad or Android, which will give you a computer band to practice with.
Jazz music is a lot of fun. For me it starts with 40's swing...Andrews Sisters, Bing Crosby, Guy Lombardo, Anita O'Day with Gene Krupa...my father's collection of 78rpm records basically. It moved out from there as I played in bands. Something like "Birdland" by Weather Report might be a good one to look at.
Armed with a clear foundation of what you think, you will be in a better place to then engage in 'What is jazz" discussions on TB if that is your thing. And let me tell you there are some guys on TB with REALLY AMAZING resumes.
Oh, one other thing. To many of the jazz heads on TB, bass = upright, and electric is the "slab"...a nasty device that ripped the soul out of music. If you want to pursue jazz all the way, at some stage you will probably need to consider studying double bass.
Once upon a time New Orleans cornet players said someting similar about trumpetsfingerbun said:
For me it was something I came to over a long period. The upright opens doors in many musical styles, not just jazz, and for me personally classical orchestral music is the most rewarding aspect of double bass. I don't regard it as mandatory for jazz, but a lot of people on TB would dispute that, and while I don't agree with them I understand their point.
Kenny G's bass player hangs out on Talkbass, I wonder if he is reading all this and smiling
For me it was something I came to over a long period. The upright opens doors in many musical styles, not just jazz, and for me personally classical orchestral music is the most rewarding aspect of double bass. I don't regard it as mandatory for jazz, but a lot of people on TB would dispute that, and while I don't agree with them I understand their point.
Kenny G's bass player hangs out on Talkbass, I wonder if he is reading all this and smiling
Oh yeah. Classical upright is very addictive. I know several top rockabilly players that are secretly studying it.
As far as Kenny G, I actually heard a recent song of his that had a good latin feel to it, and it wasn't bad. In fact, I didn't even know it was him (probably because the sax was playing in tune). I don't really care for his music, though...and unfortunately he is often the first guy people think about when they hear the words "smooth jazz".
A start to 'jazz' would be first to improvise bass lines to the tunes you already know. Find the fifths and octaves as well as thirds and sevenths.
Then cut your teeth on tunes like
Summertime
Song For My Father
Blue Bossa
Black Orpheus
Cold Duck Time
Watermelon Man
Cantelope Island
Comin Home Baby
I Wish I Knew
Then cut your teeth on tunes like
Summertime
Song For My Father
Blue Bossa
Black Orpheus
Cold Duck Time
Watermelon Man
Cantelope Island
Comin Home Baby
I Wish I Knew
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