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Double Bass Snobbery, and why you're probably right

#21
Matthew Tucker said:
When you consider that the cost of the raw materials in a $30,000 bass and a $1500 bass isn't all that much different, what sets them apart?
...I find, both these problems can be addressed quite successfully, even for a CCBSO, but it's not real cheap, if you spend on setup and repair, and you probably might as well have put that extra toward a better bass in the first place. Unless you inherited the bass for free - which some people, do.
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "isn't all that much different." My understanding is that the differences in the cost of the raw materials between a $1500 and a $30,000 is usually quite substantial. On the one hand there would be a bunch of plywood-- on the other, some nicely flamed spruce and maple carefully chosen in terms of its characteristics as tone woods. Of course, the difference won't be as large as the difference in the cost of the two finished instruments but it's still quite substantial, as I understand.

Also, at least for the ones I've seen, the materials and workmanship are quite a bit inferior on CCBs as compared to some of our favorite entry-level DBs that go for around $1500. I understand that, with some work (e.g., replacing/replaing fingerboard, filing the nut, other setup work, etc.) one can get a CCB to be a serviceable instrument and that, most often, one would have been better off buying a quality bass to begin with. Still, that kind of work wouldn't redress the problems that will remain as a result of overall poor design and inferior materials used in making the body of the bass.

I suspect that there's no fundamental disagreement here. Especially for the benefit of newbies, I'm trying to guard against the notion that, with some work, or even a bit more work than makes good economic sense, one can expect to turn a CCB into a bass having the quality of the entry-level basses usually recommended here. From what I've seen and experienced, that's not the case-- which is to say it's more than just the hand of the maker in those cases.
 
#23
Jason Sypher said:
There's nothing snobbish about an artist buying the best tools he/she can afford be it brushes, chisels, sushi knives, wrenches, cameras, software or, doublebasses.
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Well, of course not. The "snobbery" misperception by some is that they are being told that they also must buy the best tools and that nothing less will do.
 
#26
I think one of the reasons bassists on this site recommend against very cheap instruments is that a lot of them are unplayable or have serious problems. When my private students come in with these "great deals" that they bought without consulting me, I really have to hold my tongue when they realize that despite being really shiny looking, they can't make a sound on them.

I also teach beginning orchestra in a school that is in a low-income area. When I first started teaching, I talked to some veteran teachers that told me to not allow the kids to buy cheap violins from ebay or pawn shops. My first year, I decided to not heed this advice and let the kids buy these cheap instruments because I knew they couldn't afford anything better. I had never seen so many black, white, and purple violins in my life. These things were impossible to keep in tune and I constantly had problems with the tuning pegs slipping. These kids would come up to me 5 times in the course of a 45 minute class because their peg slipped and they needed me to re-tune it. They would occasionally ask why this was happening and I wanted to tell them "Because you bought this cheap piece of junk", but I didn't want to bash their prized possession.

I think this may be where some of the posters in the forums are coming from. They know that these really cheap instruments are a mistake, perhaps from their own experience. They may go about sharing that information the wrong way, however. Perhaps instead of suggesting purchasing a much more expensive instrument, they could suggest renting a better quality one until that person is ready to buy something acceptable. I think some people already offer this as a solution, but for the ones that posting the "snobbery" comments, maybe this should be considered.
 
#28
As this thread is entitled snobbery I'll just share this - which won't be much help but here goes.

Quite a few years ago I sold an old ply bass to a rock'n'roller. In showing him the instrument I explained that as I was a jazzer I tended to play in the flat keys, whereas a rocker would probably go for the sharps. 'Is that out of snobbery?' he asked.
 
#30
You are wise for your years!

There are some sleeping giants that are 'used' and will fit a beginner's budget, however, new beginner basses are generally not great quality from one 'same model' bass to another. Most often there's lots of dogs in that pile, for sure!
 
#31
Jason Sypher said:
Snobbery is often the burden of the accuser, not the accused.
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<begin TB philosophical side trip>
I get what you're saying, Jason, and I agree. But if we're implying that there's no such thing as those sorts of people then I can't agree. Some of their names are familiar to me.

Maybe "snobbery" is just a word that doesn't work here. But we need something to describe "having a fetish for highly beautiful and expensive tools, combined with a haughty disdain of others not sharing that particular social malady." It's the disdain bit where snobbery comes in.
<endTB philosophical side trip>
 
#32
This is the best thread on this subject in the forum to me. No one is insulting others or putting them down because they can't afford a better instrument. To me, the only snobbery is when someone states that there are no decent cheap basses or they make it sound like CCBs are the only ones that need a set up. All of them need a set up, it's just that alot of luthiers won't work on cheaper basses. I'm certainly not saying that my bass is comparable to the great basses out there and if I could afford an Upton and a Ferrari, heck yea I'd go for it lol. As it stands I'm happy with what I have and thankfull to have that
 
#33
nicechuckh said:
This is the best thread on this subject in the forum to me. No one is insulting others or putting them down because they can't afford a better instrument. To me, the only snobbery is when someone states that there are no decent cheap basses or they make it sound like CCBs are the only ones that need a set up. All of them need a set up, it's just that alot of luthiers won't work on cheaper basses. I'm certainly not saying that my bass is comparable to the great basses out there and if I could afford an Upton and a Ferrari, heck yea I'd go for it lol. As it stands I'm happy with what I have and thankfull to have that
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Absolutely.

My Palatino was stupidly cheap and, honestly speaking, it's not a great bass at all, but after a good set up by the folks at Hammond Ashley and a change in strings, it's really pretty good for $850. It being my first URB and since I'm of limited means, it made sense. I can learn on it comfortably, I'm less paranoid about it as I drag it from club gig to club gig, and it will get me through to when I can afford a better bass (most likely an Upton after reading through the various threads here).
 
#34
Jason Sypher said:
A friend who went to school with Edgar vividly remembers the first time he saw Edgar come to class with a factory German bass with a big hole on the side, all taped up with masking tape. There were snickers all around until he started playing.... It ain't what you got, it's what you do with it.
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Well, up to a point. The tools often do really matter. It's what you got and what you do with it. :)
 
#35
In thinking about this issue, I always go back to the young person who has an itch to do this, to play this instrument of ours. A young person who knows nothing, has nothing. Should they get going however they can, or should they wait until they together a decent instrument, a decent setup, a decent __________?? Not waiting for top quality or anything, just waiting for "decent". Should you wait, or should you go?

For me, the best answer is this: go. Get a bass however you can manage it, something is better than nothing. And make sure you get a teacher -- even one lesson is better than nothing. Is this optimum? Far from it, obviously. Is it sufficient to get going? Absolutely. Better than nothing.

And then see what happens. If you want it, you'll figure it out, and you'll get there.
 
#36
Wow, I'm surprised at the response I've got from this. Not only a lot of responses, but everyone's getting on fine!

Of course, nothing beats practice and talent etc, but that's completely free (well, apart from a teacher, I suppose) and completely worth every minute of time you put into it.

Again, thanks for all the great comments!
 
#37
I think that as with all statistics, most people need to ignore the top and bottom 15% or so and focus on the 80% in the middle. I appreciate really fine instruments, but will never own one and don't really wish I had one because I think I'd be uncomfortable with it and don't feel I would be using it properly, doing what I do. (see my current thread in "Misc")

I also feel pretty strongly against buying a cheap eBay bass unseen if you really want to play. These things are difficult to maintain and even with decent instruments, you're signing up to a commitment to care and feeding. I've also had playing related injuries off and on over the years and I'm certain that having my bass work with me rather than against me is critical. Not everyone who plays bass has injuries, but they're not that uncommon either.

I also feel like having some acoustic capabilities is a basic requirement, which you don't always get from the cheapest of the cheap. If I have to plug it in, no matter where I am, why not get an EBG or EUB?

Everything else, ranging from well made Chinese plywood - through old shop basses in various condition - on up to symphony quality working instruments, I think are fine. I've played some great plywood and hybrid basses. I've noticed things that I prefer about mine to basses both more and less expensive. I think people should play the instrument they can afford that speaks to them.

I can't really ponder things on either of those extremes, though. I know that people will own them for their own reasons. I'd never tell someone with a $100k bass that they love that they shouldn't have it. I only really say that to people about cheap basses when they seem to not understand the issues and express a desire to play and work with the instrument. It's not meant to be snobbery, it's just the best advice I can give, when people ask my opinion.

Which by the way, comes up 3 or 4 times a week in this forum, as if it were the first time.
 
#39
If you don't spend 20,000 on a bass you are a loser!!!

LOL, seriously, I have seen some inexpensive uprights that were very nice. I once dated a girl who played Cello and she was very snobbish about it because it had some kind of pedigree but at the end of the day she was a horrible player and I would rather jam out on a SX 100 jazz copy that own an expensive instrument and be snobbish!!
 
#40
Lol great responses. Even tho my bass is an ebay CCB I still would recommend to anyone, play before you buy if possible. Wasn't possible for me and I'm happy and as I said elsewhere in this site, mine fell from vertical to it's side and only marred the finish on the outside of the upper bout, so it must be built decent, but the adjustable bridge that came with it allowed me to lower the strings to about 3 inches off the end of the fingerboard lol, so I found a good deal on a used bridge thankfully but not the ideal way to purchace, on the other hand I certainly agree that having an instrument is 200 percent better than not having one if you can't rent one and are willing to do the set up work. When I was raising my 3 children alone, working for the county, I'd get music magazines and look for months waiting for my tax refund to come in. With this bass the way it plays now, I'm not miserable because I don't have better, maybe you convince yourself to like the sound etc. on an instrument you've worked on, but it records well too. Anyway I'm enjoying this thread.
 

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