• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Snobbery, and why you're probably right

#42
Damon Rondeau said:
In thinking about this issue, I always go back to the young person who has an itch to do this, to play this instrument of ours. A young person who knows nothing, has nothing. Should they get going however they can, or should they wait until they together a decent instrument, a decent setup, a decent __________?? Not waiting for top quality or anything, just waiting for "decent". Should you wait, or should you go?

For me, the best answer is this: go. Get a bass however you can manage it, something is better than nothing. And make sure you get a teacher -- even one lesson is better than nothing. Is this optimum? Far from it, obviously. Is it sufficient to get going? Absolutely. Better than nothing.

And then see what happens. If you want it, you'll figure it out, and you'll get there.
Click to expand...

This applies equally to a person of any age who is getting into it. I'm 38 and couldn't afford something really good, but I found an instrument that was good enough, and a teacher, and I'm on my way. More than anything, I'm having a blast. I'm what I would call a high-level hobbiest, I perform, record, rehearse both on my own and with the groups I play with, but it isn't how I make my living, and so at the end of the day if the instrument allows me to express myself and have a good time, it's doing what it's supposed to do. That said, I get GAS as much as anyone else. :help::D
 
#44
A consultant came into our office to sharpen things up; immaculate linen suit, brightly buffed shoes, immaculate shirt and tie - you know the type. He wasn't over-friendly. I got to hear that he had a double bass so I went to talk to him about it. It was new, bespoke English made and a five stringer. He wasn't exactly snobbish but his manner was certainly precious. I told him I was also a bassist and mentioned a few facts. He loked at me in surprise and said 'so you actually play it in public'.
 
#46
I think that it may help for folks to realize that the classic advice about not buying an overly "cheap" instrument is based on hard-won, very practical experience.

It is hard to effectively communicate the loneliness and pain one feels upon realizing that one has just entered the realm where they spent their scant funds on something that is:

a) going to be more expensive to correct/fix to make truly playable

b) even with significant cash/time expenditures, will never really perform satisfyingly

c) is actually going to distract you from playing music, not help you

Different budgets, at different times. When I was a teenager, I could only afford a totally beat up German factory hybrid. I studied, practiced, played, and performed on that thing for years, with some good results. Ironically, now I am a much less adept player, but I can afford a much nicer (and more expensive instrument), that is actually a much finer bass than I my current technique allows me to use, fully.

That said, I have still made compromises. For most of us, at any budgetary range, buying a bass is weighing many variable to find an appropriate, individually-suitable balance.

My current bass has many rough fit-and-finish details, from the original maker. All the work that followed was dedicated to making it play and perform startlingly well, as a sound-producing machine. So, in this case, (if the funds had been available) I could have spent three-to-ten times what I paid, for something that both played/sounded great AND had excellent fit-and-finish. For my budget, I needed to choose, so I picked function. It was a very practical decision, informed and influenced by the perspective and contributions of many people.

My point is that much of the experience I have seen shared here has been just that; experience. As such it is essentially irrefutable, IMHO. Most folks are trying to help somebody avoid some pain/loss that they have either experienced, first-hand, or have seen others live through.

Watching newbies choose to buy something really poor can feel as if one has walked into a clearing, to see somebody lying with their head on a railroad track. You can see the train coming.

You say, "You know, you may want to move; there's a train coming. I have seen how this ends; it will not be good." They say, "But I like it here; the rail is so nice and warm in the sun. I think that this is good. I have had a great time lying down in other places, so I will continue to do so, here. That's what I know. It's my right to choose."

You say, "Okay. Good luck."

The challenge is that folks may easily feel alienated and patronized. The issue seems to be that they have asked for help, but don't like what they are hearing and/or how the information is offered.

There is something therapists talk about, where a person tells you about a problem, then proceeds to argue with any solutions/help proffered. It is a way for the person in pain to pull somebody else into their world of misery. By rejecting offered help, the person feels empowered.

The challenge in these discussions, for me anyway, may be to keep offering help, but to "let go" of what other folks choose to do.
 
#48
Nicely said, I agree.

My comments -- which might be summarized as "take all this information into account, but don't be shy about getting started" -- were offered in an attempt to weave in another thread of (what I feel is) truth in this discussion. When we think of newbies, I think we're usually thinking of eager, headstrong young people, prone to bad ideas that need heading off. We've seen one or two around here, haven't we? But I'm thinking, too, of the shy newbie. The timid one. The sheep in the herd. The one that takes every veteran utterance at complete face value. The one that thinks everything's gotta be in a row or nothing's doable. The one that thinks there's something shameful, or less creditable, in making do with tools and gear that don't show up on anyone's top ten list, never have and never will. Those are the ones that need to hear that, yes, there is a lot of excellent, hard-won wisdom in veterans about tools and gear, that the advice is offered in a positive, generous spirit of helping, but you shouldn't let tools stand in the way of starting out.

There are some folks I know who play washtub bass. For the most part, it sounds pretty bad. That's just not a great-sounding, expressive instrument, as we all know. Some of those players know how to get the most out of it; they're making music and spreading the joy. Those players know tons more about bass-playing and music than the proto-players saving up their pennies, waiting to get started. There's a spirit there of refusing to let tools be a roadblock. I like that spirit. That's my point. It's a minority theme in this topic -- deservedly so, too -- but I think it needs to be there.
 
#49
I'd like to add a bit to the "tools" thoughts. To be sure, and as noted here, a good player can pull a respectable sound out of a Kay or any other "decent" entry-level instrument. A beat-up carved bass with a taped-up hole? Sure, why not. We've discussed many times how player X sounds like player X regardless of the bass that he/she is playing. Of course, it's in the hands and what's of paramount importance is how well the instrument is set up. I'm certainly not a pro-- I've worked on and improved my "sound" over years (thanks to fine teachers) and even I can pretty much pull it out of any DB on which I lay my hands-- sometimes to the astonishment of a newbie player.

Of course, those of us who have the means and desire to play basses above the entry-level grade do so because they sound better and play better and that adds to our musical enjoyment and helps us to express what we want to express. The exchange of energy between strings and a well-carved top provides a "feel" that just isn't there (for me, anyway) on a lesser bass.

IMO, there is, however, a limit. This gets back to the "decent" instrument notion. I think one can take any of the quality, entry-level instruments discussed here every day, provide it with a good setup, and it will be a fine player worthy of many years of learning and progress by any student. No, it won't sound like a better bass would but it will play just fine. IMO, not so with a CCB-- at least not without so much effort that the cost would be prohibitive if not done as a DIY project. Even then, it may not be a stable instrument in terms of holding its setup. Indeed, some folks here have gotten lucky with such instruments but even they seem to agree that it's not a path they would recommend to a newbie.

No amount of reasonable setup work can compensate for poor design (overstand, fingerboard projection, neck profile). Those things can hinder progress as can open seams and an imploded body. :)

So, yes, in terms of learning to play, it's pretty much about the player and not the tools down to a point where the tools become a huge factor. IMO, CCBs are, in general, below that point.

This is all true in arenas beyond the DB. So what does one do if one simply can't afford a decent DB and saving up within a reasonable time is not an option? I think such situations are somewhat rare but, as was said here before, either rent or, if you absolutely must, then go for the CCB with the understanding that it's the hamster of the DB world (you don't bring it to the vet-- you throw it out or bury it :D).

If you needed to bolt the water pump back on your car and get to work but had just a few bucks, you'd buy a $10 socket set at the Dollar Store and try to get the job done before the ratchet snapped and the soft sockets wore down. If you needed to do that on a regular basis you'd get a better set, although you may not by a Snap-on set right away. Sometimes it is about the tools. :)
 
#51
Damon Rondeau said:
Nicely said, I agree.

My comments -- which might be summarized as "take all this information into account, but don't be shy about getting started" ...." I like that spirit. That's my point. It's a minority theme in this topic -- deservedly so, too -- but I think it needs to be there.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. My first double bass was a Kay borrowed from my school, with a broken neck heel, warped neck, light showing through the fingerboard/neck joint, and fixed bridge. String heights probably ranged from 1" to 3/4", with steel strings.

I remember the pain and frustration of playing "Spain" (probably pretty badly, for stage band) on this thing. Then, I ran out and bought (for $500, in the mid-70's) a bass I saw in the local classifieds.

In both cases, I played these modest instruments obsessively, to the best of my limited abilities.

Having something, anything, to play was the most important thing...
 
#52
No doubt there at all -- I wouldn't want to do anything to impede that message. I think these forums have documented that wisdom about newbies and tools extensively and richly over the years. Continuously. And it's all good, truly. I'm with it. It's just that sometimes it can feel a touch proscriptive -- that it could maybe dampen even slightly that great young spirit to get going. It's probably just me. I'll shut up now. I've piped up plenty about CCB's over the years.
 
#53
It's hard to argue with 400 years of constantly-refined tradition.

Francois Rabbath, one of those people who I would consider the least-snobby and among the most humble of bassists, said in a masterclass (which you can find on YouTube! I love the internet) that if you don't have a good instrument to play on, how will you ever expect to love to play it?

I think that's putting it the best way. Yet still, I think the bassist makes the product of the tools given to him using his own skill. That said, you can make a sculpture out of a turd if you're a great bassist. Maybe not a very nice sculpture, but one with a lot of skill and precision put into it, despite the tools you're given to make it with. But for those of us who can't, a decent bass is probably the best answer.
 
#54
Sure, but I'd argue even the best of bassists can't make much of a "sculpture" from a CCB with an imploded top. Well, okay maybe they could drum on it. :D
 
#55
drurb said:
Sure, but I'd argue even the best of bassists can't make much of a "sculpture" from a CCB with an imploded top. Well, okay maybe they could drum on it. :D
Click to expand...

Super-glue and duct-tape!

That reminds me, I remember seeing an old Kay for sale on eBay a few months back. It had a tennis ball for an endpin stopper and had duct-taped holes in it. It was up for $1,200, actually, and I PMed the seller and asked him about it, but I didn't think he'd get his price for it.

I went to my bass teacher's house last night, and I was talking to him about basses and told him about said bass--apparently his friend bought that same bass and had restored it. It sounds great, now, I hear.

May not be out of China or anything, but I was astonished that somebody would take on a bass like that!
 
#57
There are great points for both sides. Ken Werner's piano story bout Bill Evans demonstrates talent can make anything sound better. I loaned a race bike to a friend and the second pass he went quicker than I ever did. But, better tools will make for a better result. Buy the best you are comfortable with. Because, as good as BE made the "bright" piano sound, I'm sure it's not as good as he sounded on other pianos.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back