jdthebassman
play to live live to play
it is not your job to bring in people it is to keep them there entertained.
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I play in two bands, both are polar opposites of each other. One is a very talented, mostly original act with talent off the hook. We play mostly in bigger venues opening for national acts or headline venues where we have a show and never play over a 90 minute set. That band isn't about selling beer or filling a dive bar with 20 drunks. It's never a question in that band.
My second band is a well established rowdy rock and roll cover band with good and fun musicians (the singer was just inducted in the Iowa R&R hall of fame this year (yes Iowa actually appreciates their musicians) and is a party playing strictly covers. Some nights we have great crowd, others not so much, but we always have a blast. Because of that, we have a rolling party of normally 50 people that follow us within an hours of our base city. Honestly we never get asked that question, but then again the band is going on its 7th year. We do play some dives, but it's always a great time and we are always guaranteed another show. At this point we have a rotation we play with this band and the places know what they are getting.
My second band is a well established rowdy rock and roll cover band with good and fun musicians (the singer was just inducted in the Iowa R&R hall of fame this year (yes Iowa actually appreciates their musicians) and is a party playing strictly covers. Some nights we have great crowd, others not so much, but we always have a blast. Because of that, we have a rolling party of normally 50 people that follow us within an hours of our base city. Honestly we never get asked that question, but then again the band is going on its 7th year. We do play some dives, but it's always a great time and we are always guaranteed another show. At this point we have a rotation we play with this band and the places know what they are getting.
I think it's ridiculous to hold an out-of-town band to packing the place. Maybe not so ridiculous in town, though.
The only business reason to reserve floor space for a stage and pay musicians to fill it is where it's a competitive advantage over those that don't. Consciously or otherwise these venues have already decided to follow that business model. So it's no longer a question of whether band/no band is likely to be more profitable -- the venue is counting on being a place to go to hear live music. The music isn't ancillary to the booze and peanuts, the music and the social scene it creates are the primary ingredients in the package the venue is selling.
One of the important things that has changed is cover charges. Those few bucks at the door get you to break-even, and the drinks make the profit. But people grew unwilling to pay covers. The venues found themselves with an identity and a business model, but no profits. So they started focusing more on finding other ways to bring people in, including taking advantage of hungry musicians who'll beg their pals to show up.
Now younger people seem to have generally lost interest in live music as an experience and in booze, bars, pickup scenes, carrieokie, trivia night, two-step night, all of it. Like video rental stores, the bars are finding that their model has melted out from under them and they're left with the only people who will still reliably call: musicians.
For years I've advocated to anyone who would listen that as a matter of survival we should be producing our own gigs -- rent the venue, arrange for the bar, bring in the lights, sound, chairs, whatever, invest, market, pay your musicians, take the risk and hope for a profit to roll over into the next gig. Create the scene you think people will want, and charge 'em for it. If you're gonna beg your friends to show up, at least have them pay you instead of some sleaze who doesn't care.
We do this for benefits pretty frequently, why not for bread?
One of the important things that has changed is cover charges. Those few bucks at the door get you to break-even, and the drinks make the profit. But people grew unwilling to pay covers. The venues found themselves with an identity and a business model, but no profits. So they started focusing more on finding other ways to bring people in, including taking advantage of hungry musicians who'll beg their pals to show up.
Now younger people seem to have generally lost interest in live music as an experience and in booze, bars, pickup scenes, carrieokie, trivia night, two-step night, all of it. Like video rental stores, the bars are finding that their model has melted out from under them and they're left with the only people who will still reliably call: musicians.
For years I've advocated to anyone who would listen that as a matter of survival we should be producing our own gigs -- rent the venue, arrange for the bar, bring in the lights, sound, chairs, whatever, invest, market, pay your musicians, take the risk and hope for a profit to roll over into the next gig. Create the scene you think people will want, and charge 'em for it. If you're gonna beg your friends to show up, at least have them pay you instead of some sleaze who doesn't care.
We do this for benefits pretty frequently, why not for bread?
Most times these days its because the owner or manager likes live music. Its very hard to make any extra profit in a venue by putting on live music.
For most cover bands and soloists this is the case. The venue has a certain amount of built in crowd due to their reputation for entertainment, it's your job to entertain them and keep them there spending money.
The exception to this is when I'm paying in excess of $5000 for a well known originals act that has good local airplay. Then there will be a cover charge and the band is expected to draw a crowd
All of this is even more challenging if (for example like me and most of my band - you are over 50 and you play music in one of the most over-saturated live music markets on the planet - the SF Bay Area.)
We face this crap at every gig.
Our drummer is 26 and somehow that helps....
We face this crap at every gig.
Our drummer is 26 and somehow that helps....
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
A venue owner has to make money. They are not there to enable your hobby. When a bar has a band, they have fewer tables, and they have to pay you. Unless hiring you means they make more money, they shouldn't hire you.
Whether it's Joe's Bar and Grill or Giants Stadium, the key is how many fannies you can bring in. That's why the Stones are still touring, and why Billy Joel still plays MSG every month.
Whether it's Joe's Bar and Grill or Giants Stadium, the key is how many fannies you can bring in. That's why the Stones are still touring, and why Billy Joel still plays MSG every month.
I can safely say that in over 20 years of running pubs and clubs I've never asked a band if they can pack the place or how many people they will bring. I know if the band isn't a known entity then its up to me to ensure a crowd and if they are known, and being paid accordingly, I'll have done my homework on what to expect.
On the other hand I've lost count of the number of bands that have asked for a gig, at decent money, saying they'll pack the place. When i counter their offer by saying I'll guarantee them only $50 per person but they can have all the door charge so they should make good income if they pack the place, suddenly they are not so confident of packing the place and reject the gig offer.
On the other hand I've lost count of the number of bands that have asked for a gig, at decent money, saying they'll pack the place. When i counter their offer by saying I'll guarantee them only $50 per person but they can have all the door charge so they should make good income if they pack the place, suddenly they are not so confident of packing the place and reject the gig offer.
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Everyone else already hit on the build an audience first by playing around town a bunch there isn't a fast solution to getting interest, but If there are 4 people in your band and they each bring 5 people (girlfriends, family, friends, etc) to the show you will have 20 people there guaranteed...I feel that should be enough to get the ball rolling as long as you promote and can bring 5-10 more random people then you have 25-30 people there...
Good question.
Because it causes people to stay longer and spend more.
There are a few clubs that I play at frequently that have great locations (ocean view) very nice upscale ambiance, good food and affluent clientele.
On nights that they do not have music, those places are generally very busy by 7 pm with after work business professionals having drinks and appetizers then pretty slow by 9pm or so.
Nights that they have live music (Weds-Sat). the crowd stays drinks and dances until 11:30 or 12pm.
The club brings them there and the bands keep them there.
The best band in town isn't going to fill a dumpster.
Sell, sell, sell. It's not the bar's job, it's our job. They are paying us to be the entertainment. If the act doesn't draw a crowd then there's no reason to have the act in the first place.
No two schools of thought, no payment just for the privilege of hearing some tunes. Asses on the dance floor and drinks being sold or you're done. That's the job.
I used to play at this place which used to be a hot spot, but fell into huge decline. We were their highest paid act by almost double, and people were uninterested in their dirty venue and regular sucky acts who work for rock bottom. Since I played there a ton back in the day, we did a string of nostalgia gigs. None of our people came because they didn't want to get stabbed or mugged. The owners, who I went way back with, got angry with me for our inability to draw a crowd, and were upset at us that we had huge draw at other local venues of which they saw packed gigs of ours on facebook. I can't promo a show at a place no one wants to go. I feel the responsibility is split between the act and the venue to bring in a crowd. I won't book there anymore at any price, because I'm tired of being held responsible for the draw in that dump.
The band I'm in now is just getting out the past couple months. We played a place three weeks ago and brought in about a hundred people. The owner doesn't think we can do it again, and he's probably right. How many times can you get friends and family to come out and see your band, especially when most of them are not the kind of people who go out to see bar bands every week. We're facing the reality of having to create a following outside of people we know personally.
Oh, the days of mailing lists (remember those)? When you draw a large crowd to any venue, you have leverage to request/demand more money! Many years ago, our mailing list of more than 1000 names, helped us to negotiate some decent rates from club-owners, who otherwise may have refused to pay us more than a mere pittance.
All other arguments aside, the venues that are the most successful where I live are the ones that hire good bands and pay them well. They don't ask about your draw, because people know that the venue delivers. People LIKE being a regular at a place. They like knowing the menu and knowing the waitstaff/owners. If a venue consistently delivers quality entertainment, they will pack themselves out without any assistance. Sure, good bands will always have followers, but too many venues act like parasites rather than trying to form a symbiotic relationship with their entertainment.
I find the idea of a virtually unknown cover band, drawing large crowds of people to an equally unknown and average bar or club, laughable.
So I own a restaurant and bar. As a general rule, we're paying the band so that we can bring people in.
I'm not sure if that's clear, let me explain.
It's our job to pack the house, not yours. However, it's mighty hard to pack a house with nothing on offer. I once paid 80 bucks to see Primus and Tool. I never paid 80 bucks to stare at an empty floor.
Maybe that's a bad example. Let me explain.
Without the music, the bar/biergarten/patio feels empty. And if it feels empty, it is empty. So you supply the music. Your job is the same as our job: to supply the entertainment to the customer.
It's not your responsibility to sell the show to the people. It's your responsibility to put on the show. It's our job to sell the show to the people. Any place that tells you different is putting all of their success or failure upon your shoulders, and you're just a contractor, really. You have very little skin in their game.
I hope I have been able to explain.
I'm not sure if that's clear, let me explain.
It's our job to pack the house, not yours. However, it's mighty hard to pack a house with nothing on offer. I once paid 80 bucks to see Primus and Tool. I never paid 80 bucks to stare at an empty floor.
Maybe that's a bad example. Let me explain.
Without the music, the bar/biergarten/patio feels empty. And if it feels empty, it is empty. So you supply the music. Your job is the same as our job: to supply the entertainment to the customer.
It's not your responsibility to sell the show to the people. It's your responsibility to put on the show. It's our job to sell the show to the people. Any place that tells you different is putting all of their success or failure upon your shoulders, and you're just a contractor, really. You have very little skin in their game.
I hope I have been able to explain.
Am I the only one that wished musicians played music, promoters promoted and club owners stayed out of the way?
