So Much for the Recovery

[AntekStalich]

The fact is that the oil industry and the motor car industry have been going hand in hand since the invention of the internal combustion engine. Efforts to build really economic alternative energy car had been hampered by the oil industry. Now, I wonder how long it would take to make realistically priced alternative energy cars for the mass-market.

My colleague in Hungary drives a hybrid car and of course he is happy with low fuel expenses. On the other hand, he would get far bigger and more convenient conventional car for the same money if not the fact he's a greenie and also he simply does not need a larger car. I only wonder what happens if he tries selling his car after couple of years. Such cars are too expensive, to start with. Potential buyers may want to spend their money on a new, less expensive car. I also do not know what happens to all that fancy electronics etc in say 10 years in the existing car. How expensive the repairs will be?
My feeling is that this technology is like mobile phone, a PC or a digital SLR: They get obsolete very fast. The only difference is the cars are far more expensive.

 

[jp58]

Call me devil's advocate, but I wonder what happens when a hydrogen car undergoes serious crash, damaging its high pressure hydrogen tank, and hydrogen is extremely explosive

Explosive or not, the high pressure release of the gas would be much more dangerous than a flame or "explosion. The lack of oxygen in the tank prevents a true "explosive" fire from occurring. The biggest danger, in my opinion, would be the approximately 4500 PSI stream of hydrogen, capable of shearing skin and meat from bone.

Something else to consider is that we can't (currently) store as much energy, electrically, in a car. But that's a matter of time and tech!

Something about "We can (re)build it, we have the technology..."


At any rate, gas is a terrible economic indicator for our "recovery." It is much to dependant on factors that lie outside of our economy.

 

[dj150888]

Explosive or not, the high pressure release of the gas would be much more dangerous than a flame or "explosion. The lack of oxygen in the tank prevents a true "explosive" fire from occurring. The biggest danger, in my opinion, would be the approximately 4500 PSI stream of hydrogen, capable of shearing skin and meat from bone.

This has been covered by Rusty Chainsaw

I believe Honda solved that problem with their FCX Clarity - apparently the hydrogen tank is triple-walled and practically indestructible. It's also passed every crash test going.

Check this out - comparison of hydrogen car fire vs. gas car fire:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[AntekStalich]

Something about "We can (re)build it, we have the technology..."

Great ideas are now made real very quickly...

25 years ago, my future brother-in-law was day-dreaming:
-- Imagine a computer network spanning the whole world. Yes, I've read such developments are already being made. But imagine what if all libraries, all private knowledge were put on such network public and everybody could share all the knowledge...

-- Or, you know, it is this CD now and we have had the (cassette) Walkman for a while. I think that the future will bring a micro Walkman, for which you'd buy a microchip with music stored on it...

Prophet or what?!

Now, I'm day-dreaming on a mass-produced car, powered by a nano thermonuclear reactor

 

[nutdog]

Indestructible:

Unsinkable:

 

[bmc]

I stood by the runway, last fall, as the world's first solar powered, manned aircraft took off. It will fly around the world nonstop next year.

Long wings with many cells to capture the sun. The technology will evolve to more efficient smaller panels over time.

I get excited when we're challenged to to address new problems. We will get there and when we do, dependancy on oil may be very different and less critical.

 

[nutdog]

Higher taxes on gas in the US would help to address deficits

Just curious, have the high gas prices addressed the deficit in the UK?

 

[jp58]

This has been covered by Rusty Chainsaw

"Racing" gas tanks have long been "bulletproof" and "leakproof;" yet, everytime I watch an IRL or Nascar event, I see a car involved in an accident catch fire.

Not only that, but the hydrogen fire displayed the exact characteristics that I thought would be damaging. It had a single, high-pressure stream. The flames would not be as dangerous to the inhabitants of the car as the stream would be.

I'm not bashing the technology, I'm just not very quick to jump on the "indestructible" bandwagon.

 

[AntekStalich]

I stood by the runway, last fall, as the world's first solar powered, manned aircraft took off. It will fly around the world nonstop next year.

Long wings with many cells to capture the sun. The technology will evolve to more efficient smaller panels over time.

I get excited when we're challenged to to address new problems. We will get there and when we do, dependancy on oil may be very different and less critical.

This is really exciting!
While I do hate political blah-blah such as "global warming" or "greenhouse effect" which only are to redirect taxpayer and consumer money to private and corporate pockets and nothing else, I am very much for realistic and reasonable alrternative energy sources. Not that wretched biodiesel that requires enormous chemical plants, making synthetic methanol from natural gas and would make an ocean of unwanted glycerine. But solar power? Great.

 

[dj150888]

"Racing" gas tanks have long been "bulletproof" and "leakproof;" yet, everytime I watch an IRL or Nascar event, I see a car involved in an accident catch fire.

Not only that, but the hydrogen fire displayed the exact characteristics that I thought would be damaging. It had a single, high-pressure stream. The flames would not be as dangerous to the inhabitants of the car as the stream would be.

I'm not bashing the technology, I'm just not very quick to jump on the "indestructible" bandwagon.

How many people are killed in regular cars? You're not going to get anything truly, "indestructible", but in safety testing, apparently, the hydrogen cars have been doing comparably to regular cars, so it won't be a safety downgrade.

 

[bmc]

This is really exciting!

Check it out:

http://www.solarimpulse.com/

I've had the pleasure to meet and talk to Bertrand Piccard on two occasions. Exciting thing to watch.

Both this aircraft and the Alinghi, America's cup racer, were designed at a Swiss school of engineering.

 

[AntekStalich]

Their spirit like with the Wright Brothers

 

[BassyBill]

Just curious, have the high gas prices addressed the deficit in the UK?

You missed out the word "helped".

Our deficit would be greater if taxes were lower in a fairly straightforward way. That's just arithmetic.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming we've got all this right over here. In the section that you quoted, I was just pointing out the fairly obvious link between taxation and revenue rather than saying anything controversial.

 

[Jools4001]

Health conscious unsalted macadamia nuts and water. Two mandarin oranges from Sicilliy at my side.

In the long term, I'm less optimistic about US recovery for a miriad of reasons. As a military power, two campaigns have taxed the bank account and national appetite for more adventures. As a financial power, the influence is weakened and and I don't believe recovery will be to what it once was.

Over the past three years, a number of countries have been trading the USD cash reserves for other currencies due to concerns about the long term economic health of the US.

The deficit in the US is substantial and a cause for concern globally. Nations with high demand for oil are watching the events in the Middle East. If news sources weren't so focussed on the entertainment value of news (rock throwing, bloodletting, etc), it would be very interesting to get some analysis on Russia, China, India and Brazil and how they asses the events underway. You know, in the shadow of all the excitement, the fact that Iran pushed through some Navy vessels through the Suez canal for the first time in over 20 years. It didn't make Israel feel too comfortable.

We live in interesting time.

I apologize to the OP for writing so much on and off topis. Think I'll shut up for a while.

Probably the most insightful post I have ever read on TB

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Indestructible:

Unsinkable:

Nothing's indestructible. Run the FCX Clarity under an 18-wheeler and it'll be just as eff'd up as a regular gas-powered car, but apparently no more so - that's what Honda were aiming for, they never claimed it was a tank. Honda has been running its fleet of FCX Claritys (and its predecessor, the regular FCX) around California for close to 10 years, and there's been no reports of any nasty accidents.

Hydrogen cars are still early in their evolution, and will have their own pitfalls and problems to overcome, same as any new technology (even though the concept of the hydrogen fuel cell is hardly new). I'd just like to see a few other car manufacturers get on board with the technology.

 

[Actium]

What bugs me is how many people are only fuel conscious when gas prices are high. Seeing people go out and buy big ass trucks right after the last time the gas prices fell back down was lol.

 

[burk48237]

Not only are the toxic chemicals and disposal issues rarely addressed when one talks about hybrids or electrics. But real long term operating costs and environmental effects are glossed over. Hybrids make great sense for low millage commuters or housewives for a second car. In other words they are nice toys. If you put 15K or less on a car they are certainly cost effective. But they are grossly impractical for people who really use their vehicles.

My current vehicle is a 97 with 308,000 miles on it. I rarely keep a car for less then ten years and 250,000 miles and I buy usually late model used. I need a reasonable amount of space for carrying samples, and I live in the north so AWD is not optional. A comparable hybrid might get 2-5 mpg more which I would love to get.

But batteries cost 6-8K and would need to replaced 2-4 times within the lifetime of that car. That means that besides the 5-10K premium I'm paying to save money on gas I'm looking at another 12-25K in maintenance cost over the life of a vehicle. I have a good friend who is one of the lead engineers at Fords small Truck group. He believes that the industry is at least 5 years away from battery technology that is affordable.

The other issue is disposal cost and landfills. By keeping a bigger less efficient car for 2-300,000 miles I am much more responsible then the person who disposes of that smaller car and goes thru 2 or 3 of them in the same time period. I'm putting far less metal and petroleum byproducts in a land fill, and I'm consuming less of them.

Until someone can come up with an extended range reasonably sized hybrid or electric vehicle with a battery life of at least 200,000 miles they aren't practical for any one who really uses a vehicle for WORK. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't like car payments, and I haven't had one in seven years.

 

[burk48237]

Just curious, have the high gas prices addressed the deficit in the UK?

LOL

 

[bmc]

Back on topic, here's an interesting piece on growth and where it will happen.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[BassyBill]

It's kind of ironic how folks love arithmetic when it supports what they want to believe and choose to ignore it when it doesn't.

Just goes to show that doublethink happens on both sides of a discussion, I guess.