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So, What makes expensive basses expensive?
- Thread starter EduardoJoel
- Start date
Well, since we're gonna talk about who owns what...we might as well look at what the Ox pedaled around:
- Jul 30, 2006
- 2,315
- 453
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist:Regenerate Guitar Works Carvin, Micheal Kelly Guitars
If you're in this business for life you start out playing what you can afford and end up playing whatever you want. There's a difference. I raised a family with a P bass but now I play custom stuff mostly. I deserve it.
There are a lot of factors that go into the price of "high end" basses, and a lot of them have been mentioned already. One thing that surprised me when I first became interested in building my own basses was the price of materials.
If you're not buy materials in huge bulk amounts, you're going to pay a lot. If you were to build your own Squier jazz bass, you'd have a very hard time keeping the cost below what you'd pay for a new one through a channel like MF or GC. Now, if you want to build 100 or more, then you might be able to save a little money by buying all of the materials at once. If you would rather build a MIM Fender (thought I think the materials are probably comparable in the two) you might save a little bit if you get good deals on all your components. Fender can afford to sell those instruments at the prices they do because they make ridiculous amounts of them and pay a small fraction of what you or I would pay for the materials and components.
Keep in mind that for those two basses you're using fairly cheap materials, and we haven't accounted for anything but the materials going into the price. There's still labor, shop equipment, possibly rent, possibly web hosting, shipping unless you have the customer pay that... oh, and then we might want to make a profit, too.
My point is, labor costs aren't the only additional costs that the high-end-custom-hand-made-bass luthiers are faced with.
If you're not buy materials in huge bulk amounts, you're going to pay a lot. If you were to build your own Squier jazz bass, you'd have a very hard time keeping the cost below what you'd pay for a new one through a channel like MF or GC. Now, if you want to build 100 or more, then you might be able to save a little money by buying all of the materials at once. If you would rather build a MIM Fender (thought I think the materials are probably comparable in the two) you might save a little bit if you get good deals on all your components. Fender can afford to sell those instruments at the prices they do because they make ridiculous amounts of them and pay a small fraction of what you or I would pay for the materials and components.
Keep in mind that for those two basses you're using fairly cheap materials, and we haven't accounted for anything but the materials going into the price. There's still labor, shop equipment, possibly rent, possibly web hosting, shipping unless you have the customer pay that... oh, and then we might want to make a profit, too.
My point is, labor costs aren't the only additional costs that the high-end-custom-hand-made-bass luthiers are faced with.
I doubt that there is any one size fits all answer, just like there is no one size fits all bass [P Bass loyalists insert comment here]. Someone suggested "Brand Name". Burning Skies pointed out beautifully that no one has ever correctly identified his Dingwall. I have on more than one occasion had someone ask me if I bought an Alembic because I couldn't afford a Fender. So I doubt that brand name is the issue. No on outside of our own little low tone thumpin' community knows or cares about our brands.
Labor? Maybe yes, maybe no. Some shops, like Alembic and Roscoe have a tight group of highly skilled specialist. How well paid are they? You'd have to ask Mica Wickersham or Keith Roscoe. My guess is they ain't tellin'. Other shops are one man operations. I believe Chris Stambaugh fits that bill. So what is his labor cost? Whatever he feels is fair I would guess. Then there's Ken Bebensee. How does he value his labor.
Materials? At the risk of sparking a flame, do the materials in a Sadowsky cost more than the materials in an high end Music Man? I honestly don't know, but if so, I would venture to guess not by a lot.
Advertising? Other than Fender, who really advertises a lot?
How about that good old tried and true economic principle of supply and demand? As long as Sadowsky, Roscoe, MTD, Alembic, and Dingwall have waiting lists and customers willing to wait 6 weeks or 6 months (or more for SERIOUSLY custom stuff), their prices are more influenced by supply and demand than by how many lbs of Scandinavian Favawood they're made from or whether they were crafted by distant cousins of Keebler elves or chucked off of a CNC.
My $0.02
Peace,
James
Labor? Maybe yes, maybe no. Some shops, like Alembic and Roscoe have a tight group of highly skilled specialist. How well paid are they? You'd have to ask Mica Wickersham or Keith Roscoe. My guess is they ain't tellin'. Other shops are one man operations. I believe Chris Stambaugh fits that bill. So what is his labor cost? Whatever he feels is fair I would guess. Then there's Ken Bebensee. How does he value his labor.
Materials? At the risk of sparking a flame, do the materials in a Sadowsky cost more than the materials in an high end Music Man? I honestly don't know, but if so, I would venture to guess not by a lot.
Advertising? Other than Fender, who really advertises a lot?
How about that good old tried and true economic principle of supply and demand? As long as Sadowsky, Roscoe, MTD, Alembic, and Dingwall have waiting lists and customers willing to wait 6 weeks or 6 months (or more for SERIOUSLY custom stuff), their prices are more influenced by supply and demand than by how many lbs of Scandinavian Favawood they're made from or whether they were crafted by distant cousins of Keebler elves or chucked off of a CNC.
My $0.02
Peace,
James
It depends a lot on many things, for example, what you call expensive.
As a Chilean musician I can't believe that some US people would buy Squiers, Mexican Fenders or GIO Ibanez!!! (Basses cost double here in Chile) for me, in therms of a bass, an American STD or even DLX Fender isn't expensive in the US!! But here in Chile they are almost impossible to get for a standard guy!!!
As a Chilean musician I can't believe that some US people would buy Squiers, Mexican Fenders or GIO Ibanez!!! (Basses cost double here in Chile) for me, in therms of a bass, an American STD or even DLX Fender isn't expensive in the US!! But here in Chile they are almost impossible to get for a standard guy!!!
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
I waited a month less than 3 years for my "Carvinez" bass.
I've heard a lot of other guys complain about 6 months, a year, or even two years of waiting...I have no complaints about the wait, and it was worth every minute. When I see threads from people who are complaining, I just feel like maybe they didn't find the right instrument or don't want it half as bad as maybe they should. For my wait I have some amazing woodcraft. I have a stunning finish that was EXACTLY what I wanted. I have features I didn't even dream of originally. For the money I spent, I had an expert at the other end of the phone for complete consultation, brainstorming and brilliant ideas. I had the same expert pick out the right materials (almost all hardware fabricated in house too. I had a VERY wide variety of beautiful woods to choose from. I had the ability to call and say 'hey, how about this...can you do this?". Try that with Fender.
Small builders pay more for EVERYTHING. They do things the slow way, but pay way more attention to the details. Fer real, Sheldon and I have discussed NECK BOLTS more than most any owner has talked to Fender about almost anything on their instruments. Yep. I requested a special finish on my neck bolts. I've tested several varieties of neck bolts to see which ones worked better for me. That's just some of what you get when you purchase at this level.
- Jun 28, 2005
- 1,015
- 18
- 87
- Disclosures
- Builder,mcdcustomguitars
I have owned Rolex watches and Timex watches. They both were pretty accurate time keepers but the Rolex felt so much better on my wrist.
Rocky
Rocky
I think that there isn't much that I can say that hasn't been said - to those who don't want a custom or boutique instrument, there's no reason to get one. To those who DO want a custom or boutique instrument, there is EVERY reason to get one.
While I HAVE played several very expensive basses, my bass that cost about $300 is the one I'm most comfortable with playing - I mean that one too, can't play a US-made Fender, or a squier, or an ibanez, or an MM with anywhere near as much comfort as my $300 squier series Jazz. I think the only other bass I've played and felt comparably as comfortable with playing was a warwick corvette standard.
Of course, none of these are "boutique" or "custom" in any sense. The advantage of "boutique" and "custom" is all in the attention and consistency - they will work their arse off to spoil you and make sure you are absolutely %100 content with the product. Of course, the only time you will be %100 content with your product is if you know %100 what you want, and they (the luthiers) are %100 capable of making it. I'm going to say if I ever got a chance to go the custom route, I'd take it without any question.
While I HAVE played several very expensive basses, my bass that cost about $300 is the one I'm most comfortable with playing - I mean that one too, can't play a US-made Fender, or a squier, or an ibanez, or an MM with anywhere near as much comfort as my $300 squier series Jazz. I think the only other bass I've played and felt comparably as comfortable with playing was a warwick corvette standard.
Of course, none of these are "boutique" or "custom" in any sense. The advantage of "boutique" and "custom" is all in the attention and consistency - they will work their arse off to spoil you and make sure you are absolutely %100 content with the product. Of course, the only time you will be %100 content with your product is if you know %100 what you want, and they (the luthiers) are %100 capable of making it. I'm going to say if I ever got a chance to go the custom route, I'd take it without any question.
LOL. Oh, come on. You did too!
If the more expensive bass is more comfortable, playable, and inspires you, then it most certainly can elevate you as a player.
And a good craftsman would never buy a tool that didn't meet his quality standards in the first place.
It's great when a player finds an inexpensive bass that does it all for him, but I don't see why some people assume that everyone's wants and needs could be met the same way.
Custom bass = more sex with you preferred gender.
It's a fact. I'm already planning on how I'm gonna beat the gorgeous women off me when my Brubaker gets here sometime this week. I fully expect that girls I have next to no relation with will want to touch me inappropriately. I'll let a few slide but I haven't quite decided where I'll draw the line.
It's a fact. I'm already planning on how I'm gonna beat the gorgeous women off me when my Brubaker gets here sometime this week. I fully expect that girls I have next to no relation with will want to touch me inappropriately. I'll let a few slide but I haven't quite decided where I'll draw the line.
Expensive bass should exude a relentless eye for perfection in fit, finish, aesthetics, overall ingredients, and playability. Expensive bass should leave the builder perfectly set up and in tune.
With production line bass, none of these things matters so much as long as the parts are the right size. After that, you're kinda on your own.
I'm OK with that. I enjoy making modestly price bass play more expensive.
With production line bass, none of these things matters so much as long as the parts are the right size. After that, you're kinda on your own.
I'm OK with that. I enjoy making modestly price bass play more expensive.
