Some questions about using Reaper, Mixing, and Mastering

[BonesawMcgraw13]

Even if it doesn't help your current issues, I would recommend that you read the link. Such good information with the most common theme being "trust your ears".

I plan on reading through it. I read a bit of it on my lunch break and the theme was definitely to use your ears. I want to get as much knowledge about this as I can as I'd ultimately like to be able to produce a studio album for this band. Both the drummer and guitarist have voiced interest in having someone do one for us but we aren't exactly making any money considering this project is fairly new and we haven't even booked our first gig yet. I can't exactly justify the expense of studio time. I can however borrow all the gear we could possibly want and plenty of background in live audio. So hopefully with a little practice and reading I can produce an album for free.

For anyone wondering I was able to fix my issues with the vocals and I'm pretty happy with it. It took a little tweaking of the volume adjustment plugin and then tweaking a few spot on the volume envelope on the track. I put the volume adjustment at 20.5 db and the max volume at -5 db. I think they were at 28 and +12 respectively before, which as you may have guessed was way too hot. After that I brought up the volume envelope in a couple of spot where it seemed a little quiet after making that first change. I'm happy with the results and I think the next track I start working on will go much smoother.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

imo It needs more bass... it could certainly use more bottom end, more depth, more deep pounding. Besides the vocal being over the top of everything else, it's clear as a bell. It just needs more bottom end.

Thanks for the input. Now that I'm happy with the mix I may start messing with the 2buss and see if I can tweak that some. It was just hard for me to really take my drummer serious considering he was listening on a phone speaker. Even professionally done songs can sound like crap through a phone imo.

 

[The Rage]

When my drummer listened to the track he said that he thought it needed more low end. I sort of took this with a grain of salt because he listened to the track through the speaker on his phone.

IMHO don't ingore this request. I've listen to the first file you linked through my headphone and sound good (apart the vocals who seems to be "distant" from the other instruments) and for me don't need more bass (but I'm not a lover of ultra-fat bass also), but most people nowdays listen through phone or a stereo car so...
Remember talking to a studio owner about the recroding of our album (but the band split before we could record it... obviously by guitarist's fault) and he suggest to listen to the rough mixes in studio, in the car, with our phone and trying to find a compromise...

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

IMHO don't ingore this request. I've listen to the first file you linked through my headphone and sound good (apart the vocals who seems to be "distant" from the other instruments)

Yea distant is definitely the right word. I've rendered this thing something like 25 times and have been happy with the instrumental mix since version 6 so everything from that point on has been tweaks on the vocals. It would probably have been a lot fewer times if I wasn't having that issue with the volume being different once rendered. Because of that, I would only make a few changes to it at a time so I wouldn't forget what I did in case I messed it up.

Remember talking to a studio owner about the recroding of our album (but the band split before we could record it... obviously by guitarist's fault) and he suggest to listen to the rough mixes in studio, in the car, with our phone and trying to find a compromise...

I took a class on music production while I was in college that was based around sony acid and my teacher said the exact same thing. So once I have a version I try to listen to it on as many different things as possible to see what the differences are. It just never crossed my mind to use a phone just because I never do that anyway, it makes sense though to do that considering a lot of people do that these days. It honestly really irks me when one of my friends tries to show me music on their phone that way so that's probably why I haven't given it much credence. Maybe I need to get with the times.

 

[silky smoove]

I've got another question. On all of the renderings I've done thus far I've been pretty happy with everything except for the vocals which have been giving me so much trouble. However, in order to get the kick drum to a level where it can be heard well I've brought it up to a point where it will clip occasionally but not constantly. I brought down the master so that it doesn't actually clip and when I render to mp3 it doesn't clip or anything. Should I be worried about this? Should I be trying to use more processing on the kick in order for it be better heard without clipping or is it not really any issue as long as my master isn't?

That means you don't have any headroom. Make sure that ALL of the tracks in your session have 12-20db (full scale) of headroom. You can do this by lowering the level of the individual waveforms, or by adding a gain reduction plugin as the first insert on every track and using it to reduce the pre-fader gain by a set amount. Adjusting the fader does not address this as faders happen downstream of the waveform and most inserts.

I tend to use -18dbfs. It's digital, so you won't lose any quality or run into the noise floor at even -24dbfs, which some guys also use as a starting point. If you do that you'll have plenty of wiggle room to process each track without blowing out your 2buss. It's likely that you'll still have around 6db of headroom on a zeroed out master fader even after stacking and processing all of the tracks.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

You can do this by lowering the level of the individual waveforms, or by adding a gain reduction plugin as the first insert on every track and using it to reduce the pre-fader gain by a set amount. I tend to use -18dbfs.

That's a really good idea that I'm going to have to try. Would it be better if I gained down my mics while tracking as well? Everything I've sent from my console to the computer has been pre fader and EQ and I set the gain on each mic so that they were pretty hot but not clipping or anything. Normally I would set my gain to unity in a live situation and use my ears to adjust but I figure since the only thing being fed into the PA from our console was the vocals and kick drum i could gain everything up fairly high and adjust those two things as needed during rehearsal.

 

[Bullitt5135]

When I've recorded live as a group, I always toss out the live vocal track and replace it with a new overdub using a relatively inexpensive MXL condenser mic. So much easier to work with than all the junk that comes through on the live vocal track. I also use Isotope Nectar vocal processing plugin -- it gets me to where I want to be with less fuss. There's another vocal plugin out there with Butch Vig's name on it that looks pretty cool too.

 

[silky smoove]

That's a really good idea that I'm going to have to try. Would it be better if I gained down my mics while tracking as well? Everything I've sent from my console to the computer has been pre fader and EQ and I set the gain on each mic so that they were pretty hot but not clipping or anything. Normally I would set my gain to unity in a live situation and use my ears to adjust but I figure since the only thing being fed into the PA from our console was the vocals and kick drum i could gain everything up fairly high and adjust those two things as needed during rehearsal.

In the digital world it doesn't matter if you track with peaks around -20dbfs, or if you track hotter and bring it down. Where you will notice a difference is in the characteristics of the preamps being used on the front end. Some sound better run closer to clipping, whereas others sound better with a lot of headroom. Most preamps in consumer and prosumer interfaces are tailored to be as neutral as possible throughout their gain sweep. Assuming this is what you used and not some fancy character/color preamp that's meant specifically to sound different at different gain levels you'll be fine either way.

 

[silky smoove]

When I've recorded live as a group, I always toss out the live vocal track and replace it with a new overdub using a relatively inexpensive MXL condenser mic. So much easier to work with than all the junk that comes through on the live vocal track. I also use Isotope Nectar vocal processing plugin -- it gets me to where I want to be with less fuss. There's another vocal plugin out there with Butch Vig's name on it that looks pretty cool too.

I'm a fan of tracking live instruments, but doing the vocals separately as well. I'm also an Izotope guy, and Nectar is a really sweet program. It's getting a little long in the tooth and I expect an update to come any day now. That and the third version of Alloy won't be far behind are my predictions.

 

[morgansterne]

the vocals are far too loud. take off all the compression and eq on the vocals and start over there. there's a 'modern deathcore' compressor plugin that is really nice and free as well.
(It's got nothing to do with death metal or anything -- I used it on the vocals for a steely dan youtube cover!!!!)

I don't think it needs more bottom end at all, but the guitars sound a bit tinny.
Do you have any extra mics/inputs? throw a mic behind your guitar cabs as well as in front and flip the phase on one of the cab mics. You can do this during the mixing stage. This gives guitars a nice deep low end.
I recommend moving the mics farther away from the sources (except for the vocals). Don't worry about bleed.
If you put mics in the right places, you won't need all this crazy eq and compression you're using.

I'd have the vocalist grab one of the drum overhead mics after you're done and redo his vocal part into that. If he can match his previous performance pretty closely, it'll sound good. A sort of doubled vocal when you combine the overdub with any bleed from the PA that spilled into your other mics. That's what I've usually done when the whole band plays and records together -- do the vocals again later.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

Where you will notice a difference is in the characteristics of the preamps being used on the front end. Some sound better run closer to clipping, whereas others sound better with a lot of headroom. Most preamps in consumer and prosumer interfaces are tailored to be as neutral as possible throughout their gain sweep.

When I first started track in our practices I was using a presonus sl 24.4.2, mainly because it's our least favored console and I could have it set up for a while to try and learn it and not have to worry about it going out on a job. When it went out over this past weekend one of my coworkers brought in a behringer x-air xr18. After going back to work on some older tracks from rehearsal and listening to the two I could definitely tell a difference. I like the way the behringer sounds much better. Because of this I'm thinking about pulling out the x32 sometime soon and seeing how it does I've been wanting to learn how to use it any way.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

When I've recorded live as a group, I always toss out the live vocal track and replace it with a new overdub using a relatively inexpensive MXL condenser mic.

I was honestly seriously considering this already. It wouldn't take much time. And it seems like it would be much easier to work with.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

I don't think it needs more bottom end at all, but the guitars sound a bit tinny.
Do you have any extra mics/inputs? throw a mic behind your guitar cabs as well as in front and flip the phase on one of the cab mics. You can do this during the mixing stage. This gives guitars a nice deep low end.
I recommend moving the mics farther away from the sources (except for the vocals). Don't worry about bleed.
If you put mics in the right places, you won't need all this crazy eq and compression you're using.

I'd have the vocalist grab one of the drum overhead mics after you're done and redo his vocal part into that. If he can match his previous performance pretty closely, it'll sound good. A sort of doubled vocal when you combine the overdub with any bleed from the PA that spilled into your other mics. That's what I've usually done when the whole band plays and records together -- do the vocals again later.

I have 4 more inputs and I've got plenty more sm57s at my disposal as well a as two more ksm137s. I may have to try all of this. It would be really easy to run the extra lines for the guitars since both of their cabs are right next to the table where I keep my console and pc. I honestly thought they sounded kind of thin myself especially our rhythm guitarist. That's the guitar that the track starts with. About how far away are you suggesting I move the mics? Right now they are maybe 2 inches from the speaker.

 

[BrianVengeance]

The best piece of advice I've ever gotten when it come to recording is to start with a great performance, capture it well and then generally not eff it up on the way out the door. Compression, eq, gates, and so on are used to solve problems, but they can't fix a performance. Same with effects... its all about the performance. If that is off, scrap it and get a better one. If you don't know what problem you're solving, then don't fix anything.

With drums you'll get more out of better mic placement than you will out of more mics - well placed overheads with snare and kick(s) will get you the further faster more often than mic'ing every drum. Less phase issues, bleed, etc. More than mics, the key to good sound drums is the room. If you don't have high ceilings or any treatment on the walls, then there isn't much you can do to prevent sounding like you're in a box, nigh regardless of with what or how you mic things.

Instead of adding (or buying) more mics, drop some money on Roxul Safe n' Sound, 1x4 common board and a bit of burlap and build a cloud for over the kit and some absorption panels for the first reflection points. You can also use it to build gobos if you have to capture live. I can't stress this enough - you'll get more out of this investment than just about any other move that you can make.

Don't be afraid to play around with mic placement for the guitar cabs - center cap vs cone edge will give you completely different sounds, as will different mics and distances. It also seems counterintuitive, but when it comes to gain, less is more. Once you've got the gain dialed in, roll it back until there is just enough to do the job - if the guitarist complains, then remind them that tone is in the fingers, not the knobs and you're capturing performance. If the gain is a crutch for technique, well... crutches aren't always pretty.

Also roll up the mids if they aren't.

Good reading on the subject - Slipperman's Recording Distorted Guitars From Hell

Like most things, the best results come from the simplest set ups. Use least amount of the best gear you have and go from there.

 

[EricssonB]

The best piece of advice I've ever gotten when it come to recording is to start with a great performance, capture it well and then generally not eff it up on the way out the door. Compression, eq, gates, and so on are used to solve problems, but they can't fix a performance. Same with effects... its all about the performance. If that is off, scrap it and get a better one. If you don't know what problem you're solving, then don't fix anything...

...this guy basically said everything that I was getting around to; saves me time. There is a lot in the OP and a lot in the conversation, so I'll take it back a few steps:

• as soon as I read "20 hours" spent on the mix while concurrently learning the software I reacted immediately by thinking that you should discard any processing and start with the raw data, from the top. Hell, maybe even just re-record the song.
  
• garbage in, garbage out. Your job in the the studio (or even recording a rehearsal) is not to fix a performance after-the-fact, but capture the essence of that performance as it happens. Even if the players are spot-on with all parts and it's their best show, a bad recording is a bad recording when considering technical things (mic bleed, hollow tracks, mud...)
• I have spent a lot of time on YouTube lately (work is so boring sometimes), learning specific aspects of many/various studio processes. I highly recommend you do the same, looking specifically into the aspects you want to improve.

YouTube:

• SpectreSoundStudios: the guy can be a bit abrasive and bass-hatery, but his specialty is metal and he breaks down into so many areas at an easily-translated. He gets into mic placement/usage for each part of the band, which is a great starting point. He also gets into a lot of mastering/mixing aspects including compression and EQ.
• RecordingRevolution: a little softer spoken, and a little more technical. Move on to him when you get bored of SSS.

Unfortunately, I can't open your files at work, so my apologies for not addressing the technical aspects. Odds are I may have said the same thing, but I'll check it when I go home for lunch today.

 

[Fliptrique]

Yeah.

All you really need is a good performance that was captured with due dilligence and proper mic techniques. All the gain levels set properly, all the phase issues sorted out and drums recorded in a nice sounding room with proper mic placement.

Also - production work should happen BEFORE recording - choosing the right tempo, key, arrangment, instruments, amps etc.

If you have these thing mixing should be straightforward and about making stuff sound great, in contrast to "making it not sound bad". I`ve had quite a few songs recorded that have a lot of completely unprocessed and clean tracks playing in the final mix.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

With drums you'll get more out of better mic placement than you will out of more mics - well placed overheads with snare and kick(s) will get you the further faster more often than mic'ing every drum. Less phase issues, bleed, etc. More than mics, the key to good sound drums is the room. If you don't have high ceilings or any treatment on the walls, then there isn't much you can do to prevent sounding like you're in a box, nigh regardless of with what or how you mic things.

I feel like I've got the drums down pretty well, but I'll tell you how they're set and maybe you'll have some suggestions as to how I could do it better. I was honestly pretty happy with the drum sounds other than the kick to which I added a little EQ, compression, and a gate. Anyway I have my e602 set into the cutout on the front to where the capsule is about 2/3 of the way inside. I've got beta57's facing directly up under both the snare and hi hat, both about 2-3" away and I reversed the phase on the hi hat, I just thought it sounded better that way. Both overheads are maybe 3.5' feet above the drums on either side facing directly downward. I've got a PG56 that covers both of this top two toms that's on a stand with the capsule centered on the middle of where the rims are closest together and this is maybe 4" away from the drums. Both floor toms also have a PG56 but on a rim clip and aimed about half way between the rim and center.

The room we practice in has pretty high ceilings at least 20' feet. It's a section of my warehouse where we keep all of our line array so it's a pretty open space. I'll look into that roxul board and I've got plenty of burlap at my disposal. What exactly is a cloud and how do I go about building one?

Don't be afraid to play around with mic placement for the guitar cabs - center cap vs cone edge will give you completely different sounds, as will different mics and distances. It also seems counterintuitive, but when it comes to gain, less is more. Once you've got the gain dialed in, roll it back until there is just enough to do the job - if the guitarist complains, then remind them that tone is in the fingers, not the knobs and you're capturing performance. If the gain is a crutch for technique, well... crutches aren't always pretty.

I'm definitely going to experiment with the mics on the guitars as far where they go. Right now both guitar cabs have an SM57 about an 1.5"-2" away half way between the outer edge and the center cap. When you say roll back the gain, do you mean going into the board or on their amp itself? None of their signal is feeding our PA so if it's just gained down going into my console I don't see them complaining too much. If you mean on their amp then I might get some flack.

• as soon as I read "20 hours" spent on the mix while concurrently learning the software I reacted immediately by thinking that you should discard any processing and start with the raw data, from the top. Hell, maybe even just re-record the song.

• garbage in, garbage out. Your job in the the studio (or even recording a rehearsal) is not to fix a performance after-the-fact, but capture the essence of that performance as it happens. Even if the players are spot-on with all parts and it's their best show, a bad recording is a bad recording when considering technical things (mic bleed, hollow tracks, mud...)

• I have spent a lot of time on YouTube lately (work is so boring sometimes), learning specific aspects of many/various studio processes. I highly recommend you do the same, looking specifically into the aspects you want to improve.

I did spend a lot of time but not all of it on this track specifically and a good amount of that was just learning the ins and outs of the software. Either way as far as it maybe being a bad recording getting another one shouldn't be a big deal especially if it'll be easier to edit if I get better recordings from messing with gain and mic placement. We practice every week and I record the entirety of it so getting more takes will be really easy. It sounds like I just need to experiment with my setup some. I'll check out those youtube channels and see if I can learn some tricks.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

All you really need is a good performance that was captured with due dilligence and proper mic techniques. All the gain levels set properly, all the phase issues sorted out and drums recorded in a nice sounding room with proper mic placement.

Also - production work should happen BEFORE recording - choosing the right tempo, key, arrangment, instruments, amps etc.

I would say this is one of our better takes as far as how tight it is. It could still use a little tightening but it's one of the first songs we wrote and everyone knows their parts etc. I'm definitely going to mess with the gain and mic placement a bit but as far as instruments and amps we have what we have. I don't think it's bad gear though. The rhythm guitar player isn't using the best guitar but both of them have pretty good amps and cabs. I will say that our lead just got this new hoof reaper fuzz pedal and has been dialing it in and I know once he does some of transitions will sound better. This is most obvious at about 2:45 if you listen to the recording. I know I'll get better takes, I've been trying to use this first track as more of a learning experience than anything else. I certainly don't plan on sharing to promote us or anything. I only shared it here in order to get some feedback.

 

[BonesawMcgraw13]

While we are on the subject of mics and mic placement I figured I would pose a question regarding mic choice. I know what each of the mics I have are used for but not necessarily which ones are better suited for different types of music and how each one differs as far as frequency range.

For the drums I'm using eight mics. I'm using two Shure KSM137's as overheads, A sennheiser e602 for the kick, a shure PG56 for each of the toms, and a shure beta 57 on both the snare and hi hat. I've got a low cut on the overhead to try to pick up mostly cymbals.

I'm using a shure SM 57 on each guitar cab. The bass is two tracks. One being a direct out of my ampeg SCR-DI and the other being a shure MD-421 on my cab.

Also I know I mentioned before that our vocalist is using a shure beta 58. I figured I would list out some other mics I have access to and maybe someone here would know if any of them are better suited for what I'm doing than the ones I'm currently using, especially once I start trying to record each track individually.

As far as condensers i have access to AT AE5100's, AT2020's, AT2021's, and Shure KSM 137's which I'm already using as overheads but I have 2 more I could use for other purposes.

The drum mics I have are sennheiser e604's and an e602 which I'm already using for the kick. I also have a shure PG52, beta 52, some beta 98's, and some PG56's which I'm currently using for toms.

For miking cabs I have shure SM57's, 2 beta 57's, an MD 421, and some sennheiser e609's.

Vocal mics are shure PG48, SM58, and Beta 58.

I'm not sure If maybe I'm using a the wrong mic for the job in some cases and could replace it with something better suited or it could just be that I don't have very good placement with the mics I already have in play.

 

[ddnidd1]

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