song structure and using archaic forms

[Clemouze]

Here's my very crude attempt at a simple piece of guitar based music using sonata form. There are a lot of problems with this recording and composition that I would love to fix but I figured it's better to just put it out there. There's a noise issue with my recording interface that I haven't run into before, need to track that down. Audible glitches every once in awhile. Also I think I got a little out of sync toward the end (well and throughout honestly, but as I said, I'm a bit of a noob).

And my apologies for the goofy drums. I'm using an old Alesis SR-16 and I'm trying to use all 50 of the built-in tracks. So I just went with this Ballad 2 track (sped up to make it more interesting) for this one.



I think it does a pretty good job of transitioning to the final theme in the tonic key. Unless you are paying close attention you might not notice it's not in the same key as the first two times it played. I didn't really develop good key modulations - it's practically a jump instead of a modulation. Maybe for my next attempt I can work on that. The development is also quite simple - just a descending bass-line and chord sequence. Normally a lot more would go into the development and it would use Theme 1 and Theme 2 in new ways (plus new music material). But as I said, keeping it simple!

By the way I like your guitar playing, cool rythms
Some JJ Cale or Knopfler vibes !

 

[skycruiser]

By the way I like your guitar playing, cool rythms
Some JJ Cale or Knopfler vibes !

Thanks for the feedback. My hope is that the track is good enough to get the idea across.

I've listened to it a few times and I'm actually surprised that to me it is not obvious that the final play through of Theme 2 is not in the same key as the previous two times. If I had established a stronger melody in the theme then it might be more noticeable. I have the feeling if I had instead moved to a different key (such as the subdominant) at the end it would be very noticeable. Maybe that means it was a successful set of modulations.

 

[Jeff Hughes]

I think applying a new approach has many benefits. Perhaps the song won’t be the greatest song ever, but it will force you to use different mental muscles.

I think some songwriters think that every song they write will be great, but in reality I agree with some other posters that you write nine songs to get to the one that is really good. So much of songwriting is an exercise. If you study well-known songwriters, it seems a lot of them let songs cook or kick around for years before they record them. Maybe the best ones stick around and the flotsam just goes away.

Probably you will learn something valuable about song structure that can be applied to other songs that might be more conventional.

Or maybe take a different approach where the song exists in two forms. Digital recording makes that very easy.

 

[skycruiser]

My 2nd experiment on Sonata form is well underway and I'm finding that it is actually a lot of fun working on the modulations between keys. If you can get get to the dominant 7th of the key you want to get to then you are there. Working your way to that while still sounding like you are working in the framework of the song is the challenge.

 

[Clemouze]

My 2nd experiment on Sonata form is well underway and I'm finding that it is actually a lot of fun working on the modulations between keys. If you can get get to the dominant 7th of the key you want to get to then you are there. Working your way to that while still sounding like you are working in the framework of the song is the challenge.

Do you think about putting some vocals on it ? ( while on the first attempt you used guitar as main melody )
It would be closer to a standard pop song I guess. Maybe drawing bridge between the concepts of modern song and your sonnata structure

 

[skycruiser]

Do you think about putting some vocals on it ? ( while on the first attempt you used guitar as main melody )
It would be closer to a standard pop song I guess. Maybe drawing bridge between the concepts of modern song and your sonnata structure

That's really my weak spot. I have no singing skills at all and right now I'm working alone. That does make it very hard to make song-like music because without lyrics that can vary, you have to vary the guitar parts to keep it interesting. At some point I need to team up with someone who can sing. But in any case, I'm really just experimenting with the structure so this could easily translate over to a song with lyrics later.

Maybe I should look into autotune ??

 

[SteveCS]

My 2nd experiment on Sonata form is well underway and I'm finding that it is actually a lot of fun working on the modulations between keys. If you can get get to the dominant 7th of the key you want to get to then you are there. Working your way to that while still sounding like you are working in the framework of the song is the challenge.

You should keep a copy of 'Modulation' by Max Reger to hand...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reger-Modulation-Dover-Books-Music/dp/048645732X

 

[skycruiser]

You should keep a copy of 'Modulation' by Max Reger to hand...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reger-Modulation-Dover-Books-Music/dp/048645732X

Thanks. For $5 this definitely worth picking up next time I place an order with Amazon. It is interesting that he appears to go through all the various keys though I think once you determine certain patterns or sequences they can be applied to any key. Since I most often just work from the fretboard and don't write out music notation, it will take a little more work to relate the text to what I'm doing. I can read music but I learned only treble clef when I was younger - it takes some translation work to read or write bass clef. And I don't have the fretboard fully mapped out to the staff yet. But in any case, I will check this out.

 

[skycruiser]

Here's where I am on my 2nd attempt at Sonata form guitar based music. I need to add rhythm guitar and do something in the development section (currently just the bass). But the form and main guitar riff/melodies are done I guess. Here are the times of the main sections:

1. Theme 1 (e.g. Verse 1) key of G @0:10
2. Modulation/Connector to Theme 2 @0:40
3. Theme 2 (e.g. Chorus) key of D (dominant of G) @0:57
4. Repeat all of above @1:25
5. Development (e.g. breakdown?), ending on the an established C, serving as a pivot point to a Dominant 7th chord (outlined by the bass) that takes us back to key of G (function of dominant 7th chord) starts @2:43
   
6. Theme 1 (e.g. Verse 3) key of G @3:20
7. Modulation/Connector to Theme 2 this time staying in key of G (again using dominant 7th to establish G) @3:50
8. Theme 2 (e.g. Chorus) now in key of G @4:10
9. Closes with the modulation section in G @4:40

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[skycruiser]

Finished the 2nd attempt at this in the video below. Times in the post above apply to this one. As was suggested above, these would be more interesting with lyrics/singing, I just don't have that ability right now. Singing might increase the impact of the "verse" in a new key at the end since the singers would have to adapt by singing up a 5th or down a 4th (if I'm doing that right). But for now I'm just using guitars.

 

[stigbeve]

Caution - long post!

This may be a bit out there and maybe not a technique topic exactly, but I didn't see a section for composition related discussion.

For a while I have been interested in song structure going back to the classical period and how they relate to modern song structure. I'm interested in the idea of creating interesting music today that uses old musical structure, and wondering if anyone else has done this. In particular I'm fascinated by the Sonata form and its relationship to a "standard" song form used today.

Here's a quick overview from my rudimentary understanding:

A generalized modern song typically has a format something like this:

1. Intro (usually in tonic or "I" key)
2. Verse (usually in tonic and related keys such as "III" or "V")
3. Chorus (usually in tonic key)
4. Verse repeat
5. Chorus repeat
6. Bridge (may vary keys and introduce new elements)
7. Final Chorus, possibly repeated - Outro (usually ends on tonic key)


The Sonata form is something like this:

1. Maybe intro material, but not typical or required
2a. Theme 1 (in Tonic key (I))
2b. Modulation to Dominant key
3. Theme 2 (in Dominant key (V))
4a. Repeat Theme 1
4b. Repeat Modulation
5. Repeat Theme 2
6. Development section (mixes elements of Theme 1 and 2 in various keys, usually ends in dominant key)
7a. Theme 1 Repeat
7b. New "modulation" but remains in Tonic key
7c. Theme 2, but now in Tonic key

The numbers above connect the Sonata form to the general song form above. In the case of the Sonata, several parts combine to match the song form.

So comparing these musical forms, you can see these related elements:

Verse (I or related) --> Theme 1 (I)
Chorus (I) --> Theme 2 (V)
Bridge --> Development

The interesting difference to me is the music that follows the development. In a modern song, you will usually hear the same chorus you heard before, maybe with some embellishments or different character/instruments. In the sonata form after the development you get a new modulation and hear Theme 2 (analogous to the Chorus) in the Tonic key for the first time. So you are hearing the same theme but in a new key.

I have tried to imagine popular songs with this change and as far as I know this is never done. The only key changes we usually hear in popular music are maybe 1/2 step changes for a dramatic effect in the outro section.

The final modulation to the tonic key is a sort of musical sleight of hand and only works if it is almost unnoticed by the listener. You find yourself hearing the familiar chorus again, but something is different, now being played in a different key (Tonic instead of Dominant). These transitions are very interesting to me in the classical sonata pieces and could make for an interesting musical effect and element in modern, guitar-based music.

To see what it takes to make a modern song in Sonata form, I'm working on a song bassline that does exactly that. I could post it here if there's any interest at all. I'm also interested to hear if anyone else has worked in Sonata form with modern music, or any other thoughts on this idea.

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting and will use in my own songwriting. I do have a question about the 7b
section of the Sonata. What do you mean by "New "modulation" but remains in tonic key"?

 

[skycruiser]

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting and will use in my own songwriting. I do have a question about the 7b
section of the Sonata. What do you mean by "New "modulation" but remains in tonic key"?

Thanks for the feedback on this. By "new modulation", I meant that the modulation music, whatever it is, is there in the later section, but it has to be modified to stay in the same key. If you listen to my example in post #30 (the 2nd video), compare the music at 0:40 to the music at 03:50. The first one (at 0:40) moves down to A at the end to shift us to the new key (A is the dominant of D, so the dominant 7th outlined in the bass resolves easily to the key of D). The later one (at 03:50) instead shifts upward to D, the dominant of G, resolving to (staying in) the key of G. In this case the bass outlines a D dominant chord, firmly holding us in the key of G.

Hopefully this is clear!

One more point - if you jump back and forth between 0:57 and 4:10, you can clearly hear Theme 2 played in the 2 different keys, in my view one of the hallmark features of Sonata form.

 

[stigbeve]

Thanks for the feedback on this. By "new modulation", I meant that the modulation music, whatever it is, is there in the later section, but it has to be modified to stay in the same key. If you listen to my example in post #30 (the 2nd video), compare the music at 0:40 to the music at 03:50. The first one (at 0:40) moves down to A at the end to shift us to the new key (A is the dominant of D, so the dominant 7th outlined in the bass resolves easily to the key of D). The later one (at 03:50) instead shifts upward to D, the dominant of G, resolving to (staying in) the key of G. In this case the bass outlines a D dominant chord, firmly holding us in the key of G.

Hopefully this is clear!

One more point - if you jump back and forth between 0:57 and 4:10, you can clearly hear Theme 2 played in the 2 different keys, in my view one of the hallmark features of Sonata form.

OK. I think I understand but will definitely check out the recording when I get a chance after work today.

 

[WestyBassBob]

I really like your idea. Usually when you try to mix to different ideas like this you at least get something interesting. Of course, the one reason why the sonata isn't emulated in popular music is the length required. I think someone here has already stated that some time is required to allow the different themes and their variations to be properly communicated to the listener.

I agree that adding lyrics would highlight the changes from one theme to another and to the different keys. One thing you could try doing as an alternative would be to develop the lyrics and melody first using this structure, then you could create all the match. That would be really interesting.

When I listened to your demos I was reminded of Kraftwerk. I have no idea if they in anyway used sonatas or any other classical form, but their hit Autobahn came to mind.

 

[skycruiser]

I really like your idea. Usually when you try to mix to different ideas like this you at least get something interesting. Of course, the one reason why the sonata isn't emulated in popular music is the length required. I think someone here has already stated that some time is required to allow the different themes and their variations to be properly communicated to the listener.

I agree that adding lyrics would highlight the changes from one theme to another and to the different keys. One thing you could try doing as an alternative would be to develop the lyrics and melody first using this structure, then you could create all the match. That would be really interesting.

When I listened to your demos I was reminded of Kraftwerk. I have no idea if they in anyway used sonatas or any other classical form, but their hit Autobahn came to mind.

Thanks for the feedback! I could see the Kraftwerk feel from the first example I posted but probably less so from the 2nd one that is more of a generic rock feel.

Another idea I have that is way beyond my musical ability is to take a well-known, popular recording that already uses Tonic/Dominant for the Verse/Chorus, and modify the ending to transition the final Chorus in the Dominant key. I'm guessing there are some famous Beatles songs out there that could be modified this way as an example. I think a listener will notice the new transition material but the final chorus in the Dominant won't seem to out of place.

If I do any more Sonata experiments I'll see if I can bring in some kind of keyboard sound to serve as a stand in for singing. Either that or try to collaborate with someone, but this is difficult with the social distancing thing going on now.

 

[SteveCS]

I think a listener will notice the new transition material but the final chorus in the Dominant won't seem to out of place.

Would not the point be to get the last chorus into the tonic key? You could do this quite neatly by geting the last verse into the subdominant key. If you then transpose the existing verse>chorus transition up a 4th you will end up with a chorus in the original tonic key, since I is V of IV.

YMMV

 

[skycruiser]

Would not the point be to get the last chorus into the tonic key? You could do this quite neatly by geting the last verse into the subdominant key. If you then transpose the existing verse>chorus transition up a 4th you will end up with a chorus in the original tonic key, since I is V of IV.

YMMV

Oops, I meant tonic key, thanks for the correction. My crude approach was to maneuver to a dominant 7th chord of whatever key I want to move to.