song structure and using archaic forms

[skycruiser]

Caution - long post!

This may be a bit out there and maybe not a technique topic exactly, but I didn't see a section for composition related discussion.

For a while I have been interested in song structure going back to the classical period and how they relate to modern song structure. I'm interested in the idea of creating interesting music today that uses old musical structure, and wondering if anyone else has done this. In particular I'm fascinated by the Sonata form and its relationship to a "standard" song form used today.

Here's a quick overview from my rudimentary understanding:

A generalized modern song typically has a format something like this:

1. Intro (usually in tonic or "I" key)
2. Verse (usually in tonic and related keys such as "III" or "V")
3. Chorus (usually in tonic key)
4. Verse repeat
5. Chorus repeat
6. Bridge (may vary keys and introduce new elements)
7. Final Chorus, possibly repeated - Outro (usually ends on tonic key)


The Sonata form is something like this:

1. Maybe intro material, but not typical or required
2a. Theme 1 (in Tonic key (I))
2b. Modulation to Dominant key
3. Theme 2 (in Dominant key (V))
4a. Repeat Theme 1
4b. Repeat Modulation
5. Repeat Theme 2
6. Development section (mixes elements of Theme 1 and 2 in various keys, usually ends in dominant key)
7a. Theme 1 Repeat
7b. New "modulation" but remains in Tonic key
7c. Theme 2, but now in Tonic key

The numbers above connect the Sonata form to the general song form above. In the case of the Sonata, several parts combine to match the song form.

So comparing these musical forms, you can see these related elements:

Verse (I or related) --> Theme 1 (I)
Chorus (I) --> Theme 2 (V)
Bridge --> Development

The interesting difference to me is the music that follows the development. In a modern song, you will usually hear the same chorus you heard before, maybe with some embellishments or different character/instruments. In the sonata form after the development you get a new modulation and hear Theme 2 (analogous to the Chorus) in the Tonic key for the first time. So you are hearing the same theme but in a new key.

I have tried to imagine popular songs with this change and as far as I know this is never done. The only key changes we usually hear in popular music are maybe 1/2 step changes for a dramatic effect in the outro section.

The final modulation to the tonic key is a sort of musical sleight of hand and only works if it is almost unnoticed by the listener. You find yourself hearing the familiar chorus again, but something is different, now being played in a different key (Tonic instead of Dominant). These transitions are very interesting to me in the classical sonata pieces and could make for an interesting musical effect and element in modern, guitar-based music.

To see what it takes to make a modern song in Sonata form, I'm working on a song bassline that does exactly that. I could post it here if there's any interest at all. I'm also interested to hear if anyone else has worked in Sonata form with modern music, or any other thoughts on this idea.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I can't say that I know anybody who's writing like that, and I don't know much about it but I do like the way you think. I say just go for it. If you come up with something post it up cuz I'd like to hear it.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Sonata format roughly using Jazz structure language is ABABCAB.

That’s not uncommon, but it’s the finer details that make your idea really interesting.

Biggest lessons I’ve learned in songwriting are
-‘Don’t force it’. It should flow naturally.
- the first 9 songs were trial runs to get you to song 10. the one that works well. Keep writing and recycling/refining your ideas - that perfect song will eventually work it’s way.out of your mind & soul.

 

[skycruiser]

Interesting that a couple of Doctors have chimed in here!

@Spin Doctor thanks for the encouragement. I'll get my "song" recorded and post it here in the next few days. Trying to decide if I should just go with the bass line or add guitars. I usually build my music off the bass line anyway so nothing new there. The bass part I've developed is a bit crude and maybe cliche, but it's mainly an experiment to test out the song structure.

@Groove Doctor I hear you loud and clear about not forcing anything and that trials are needed to make progress. I'm very new to writing music and I've posted most of them on my YT channel as an exercise in using all of my drum machine tracks for inspiration. Out of the 20 I've posted so far, I'm only really happy with about 3 of them, so the 9:1 ratio is not far off for me. I agree that the ABABCAB more or less covers this, but as you allude to it's the key change details that make the difference. I think it is a subtle effect, and I listened to a lot of classical sonata form pieces before I really started to notice that something unusual was going on in the final section. (And then I started to research how it all works and finally understood the scheme).

 

[JRA]

post it up cuz I'd like to hear it.

me too!

i'm looking forward to hearing the example.

 

[Groove Doctor]

@skycruiser - keep writing my friend, it’s something I wish I did more often & more consistently.

I’ve been through dry patches for inspiration. I found it a great time to soak in music by listening. Writing in a new style or genre also helps me stay fresh.

Some serious writers devote 30 mins a day to songwriting. If no inspiration, they just practice playing. If an idea does develop, just run with it and see what comes out. This habit helped me develop my skill & fluency the most.

 

[BassBrass]

I was in the classical world before I ever heard about "song writing" and my observation is that, yes, standard song forms are sonata form in basic shape and function. It also corresponds to standard forms in design and art. And cake decoration. It makes sense in a normal sequence. So does some degree of asymmetricality because Life is asymmetrical sometimes. But since 1900 sonata form has become an exercise in beginning theory classes, a set of rules that it is good to absorb but then forget about (escape from like a cursed strait jacket) if you want to make anything original. Mozart might make your plants grow and give your baby a higher eq. (because of sonata allegro form), but from Ravel's Bolero on, writing in sonata form has been disregarded as an antique.
Of course it's 2020 time for the next revision of antique forms. For fun, right? not oppression.

Rock music- coming from primitive 2 and 4 bar blues riffs you can work to, broke sonata form wonderfully...the other day I heard American Woman in the car, one of my Favorite sonata form-breakers. Growing up in the sonata strait jacket a generation found out the truth, that If your A section is good enough you don't need to leave it until you are done with it.

 

[BassChuck]

I feel it's important to acknowledge why people are listening to a certain kind of music. You'll note that the pop and commercial forms you point to are simpler, and have more repeated sections. Generally (IMO) that's because pop and commercial music is listened to by people who are doing something while they listen; dance, talk, eat, whatever.
The 'classical' music is chosen by people who chose to listen to the music carefully and are entertained by the use of the form, the theme, and the choices the composer has made in the construction of the piece.
Mixing and matching these opposite motivations can create some interesting issues, but generally the problem comes up that to make a fusion of concepts work, one has to water down the intention of all elements to the point that the worst examples are in the mix.
That said, best of luck in your efforts. It's work like that that does advance the art.

 

[fishdreams]

Awesome that you look at songwriting from different angles. I love your thinking. I myself got interested in alternative song structures (and started ripping ideas from the classical domain) when I started working in theatre, where the whole idea behind music was to fit into a scene - a mood that is sustained rather than a statement that takes center stage. From there on I got interested in developing songs that could be stretched - played from start to finish in different time spans - where the same song could be be performed for say, 2 or 20 minutes, without repeating the structure.

About the sonata form: I'd say the cool idea behind a sonata form is that the harmonic tension-release pivot points (such as dominant-to-tonic) drive the structure, instead of number-of-bars per section, as in a 'normal' tune. So the cool thing is that you could have an innately working arc in a tune with highly irregular number of bars/beats.

The key is in experimenting, listening to music, having fun with it, without judging yourself. Finish a song and start the next one, repeat and have fun. Good luck!!

(If you want to check out my work, feel free to listen to the 3 albums by the Fay Victor Ensemble, written with Fay Victor, which you can find on Spotify and other major platforms)

 

[skycruiser]

I was in the classical world before I ever heard about "song writing" and my observation is that, yes, standard song forms are sonata form in basic shape and function. It also corresponds to standard forms in design and art. And cake decoration. It makes sense in a normal sequence. So does some degree of asymmetricality because Life is asymmetrical sometimes. But since 1900 sonata form has become an exercise in beginning theory classes, a set of rules that it is good to absorb but then forget about (escape from like a cursed strait jacket) if you want to make anything original. Mozart might make your plants grow and give your baby a higher eq. (because of sonata allegro form), but from Ravel's Bolero on, writing in sonata form has been disregarded as an antique.
Of course it's 2020 time for the next revision of antique forms. For fun, right? not oppression.

Rock music- coming from primitive 2 and 4 bar blues riffs you can work to, broke sonata form wonderfully...the other day I heard American Woman in the car, one of my Favorite sonata form-breakers. Growing up in the sonata strait jacket a generation found out the truth, that If your A section is good enough you don't need to leave it until you are done with it.

What I'm doing is definitely for fun and as an experiment. I agree the basic forms are similar as I described in the first post, but the variation in key centers is a major departure from any popular music I'm aware of. As you probably know, Schubert was a prolific song writer (aka lieder), producing hundreds of songs, quite a few that are still familiar today. But as far as I know none of these were in Sonata form (though many in the familiar ABABCB form we are familiar with). My understanding is that Beethoven broke the sonata form, and as a transitional composer to the Romantic area, left the Sonata form as a relic around the time he died.

I also like to hear the typical song structure broken. Using strict sonata form may be a subtle way to break the typical structure while making the listener think you are sticking with the old familiar form.

I recorded my drums and bass last night. Working on the guitar part. My "songs" don't have any words but hopefully the guitar riffs will be enough to make the sections recognizable. I'm a total noob/amateur so hopefully expectations won't be too high...

 

[skycruiser]

About the sonata form: I'd say the cool idea behind a sonata form is that the harmonic tension-release pivot points (such as dominant-to-tonic) drive the structure, instead of number-of-bars per section, as in a 'normal' tune. So the cool thing is that you could have an innately working arc in a tune with highly irregular number of bars/beats.

Another interesting aspect of sonata form comes into play in a piece in a minor key. Typically in a minor key sonata piece, the 2nd theme will be in the dominant but major key (another tension element - major to minor shifts). When you hear the 2nd theme in the concluding section, you hear it for the first time in the tonic key but also now in a minor key, so you hear this familiar music material but it has very different character in minor.

 

[Tekkers]

I’m not one for traditional song structures and I’ve messed around a very little bit with sonata form, although admittedly it didn’t really take me anywhere.

The drawback (at least for my own writing) is each section really needs time to breathe, which means the whole piece can end up taking quite a bit more time than you might expect.

I’m always looking for things to cut to bring the length down so your own mileage definitely will vary, but that was my observation.

 

[Hummergeist]

Please share, will be very interested to hear the results!

 

[BassBrass]

I'm a total noob/amateur so hopefully expectations won't be too high...

starting out with writing things and participating in the creative side of music Right Away is a great idea. Like, Why not? I started improvising off trumpet etudes right away...partly to sound like I was learning them faster when I was just making stuff up. Prevented the beatings. Mother of invention and all. And yes, Beethoven was the transition guy. And I was writing in generalities likening sonata form to a layer cake etc etc. I remember being inthralled when learning sonata allegro form, the universe was in balance, but then I heard Carl Orff and Charles Ives so...I forgotaboudit.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Caution - long post!

This may be a bit out there and maybe not a technique topic exactly, but I didn't see a section for composition related discussion.

For a while I have been interested in song structure going back to the classical period and how they relate to modern song structure. I'm interested in the idea of creating interesting music today that uses old musical structure, and wondering if anyone else has done this. In particular I'm fascinated by the Sonata form and its relationship to a "standard" song form used today.

Here's a quick overview from my rudimentary understanding:

A generalized modern song typically has a format something like this:

1. Intro (usually in tonic or "I" key)
2. Verse (usually in tonic and related keys such as "III" or "V")
3. Chorus (usually in tonic key)
4. Verse repeat
5. Chorus repeat
6. Bridge (may vary keys and introduce new elements)
7. Final Chorus, possibly repeated - Outro (usually ends on tonic key)


The Sonata form is something like this:

1. Maybe intro material, but not typical or required
2a. Theme 1 (in Tonic key (I))
2b. Modulation to Dominant key
3. Theme 2 (in Dominant key (V))
4a. Repeat Theme 1
4b. Repeat Modulation
5. Repeat Theme 2
6. Development section (mixes elements of Theme 1 and 2 in various keys, usually ends in dominant key)
7a. Theme 1 Repeat
7b. New "modulation" but remains in Tonic key
7c. Theme 2, but now in Tonic key

The numbers above connect the Sonata form to the general song form above. In the case of the Sonata, several parts combine to match the song form.

So comparing these musical forms, you can see these related elements:

Verse (I or related) --> Theme 1 (I)
Chorus (I) --> Theme 2 (V)
Bridge --> Development

The interesting difference to me is the music that follows the development. In a modern song, you will usually hear the same chorus you heard before, maybe with some embellishments or different character/instruments. In the sonata form after the development you get a new modulation and hear Theme 2 (analogous to the Chorus) in the Tonic key for the first time. So you are hearing the same theme but in a new key.

I have tried to imagine popular songs with this change and as far as I know this is never done. The only key changes we usually hear in popular music are maybe 1/2 step changes for a dramatic effect in the outro section.

The final modulation to the tonic key is a sort of musical sleight of hand and only works if it is almost unnoticed by the listener. You find yourself hearing the familiar chorus again, but something is different, now being played in a different key (Tonic instead of Dominant). These transitions are very interesting to me in the classical sonata pieces and could make for an interesting musical effect and element in modern, guitar-based music.

To see what it takes to make a modern song in Sonata form, I'm working on a song bassline that does exactly that. I could post it here if there's any interest at all. I'm also interested to hear if anyone else has worked in Sonata form with modern music, or any other thoughts on this idea.

Although I've only written instrumental music, I've definitely been interested in extended forms (compared to pop songs). Generally, I found that the more material I put into a piece, (interludes, developmental sections, double bridges, etc.) the more I had to find a way to unify it all, calling back original bits of melody and harmony from the first time they appear and incorporating them in the new material. Another thing I found important was to have a real handle on the emotional curve of piece. Know where you want the peaks and valleys to be, especially the culmination of the whole thing.

This is an old fusion tune that clocks in at over 6 minutes, and it's got two solos (longish sax, shorter synth), interludes, longish intros and outs, but hopefully it hangs together as a whole.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Killing Floor]

Theory set aside for a second, write what brings you joy and write what punctuates your confidence. There's no shortage of verse-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-guitar solo-chorus. So if you're asking, I'd go all in for doing something not the same. Go for it.
Now if your question is really regarding hold fast to sonata I still say go for it for same reason.

 

[Pings Bass]

I was never into the genre enough to study it musicologicaly, but doesn't prog rock use a lot of classical forms?

 

[skycruiser]

Here's my very crude attempt at a simple piece of guitar based music using sonata form. There are a lot of problems with this recording and composition that I would love to fix but I figured it's better to just put it out there. There's a noise issue with my recording interface that I haven't run into before, need to track that down. Audible glitches every once in awhile. Also I think I got a little out of sync toward the end (well and throughout honestly, but as I said, I'm a bit of a noob).

And my apologies for the goofy drums. I'm using an old Alesis SR-16 and I'm trying to use all 50 of the built-in tracks. So I just went with this Ballad 2 track (sped up to make it more interesting) for this one.



I think it does a pretty good job of transitioning to the final theme in the tonic key. Unless you are paying close attention you might not notice it's not in the same key as the first two times it played. I didn't really develop good key modulations - it's practically a jump instead of a modulation. Maybe for my next attempt I can work on that. The development is also quite simple - just a descending bass-line and chord sequence. Normally a lot more would go into the development and it would use Theme 1 and Theme 2 in new ways (plus new music material). But as I said, keeping it simple!

 

[Clemouze]

Here's my very crude attempt at a simple piece of guitar based music using sonata form. There are a lot of problems with this recording and composition that I would love to fix but I figured it's better to just put it out there. There's a noise issue with my recording interface that I haven't run into before, need to track that down. Audible glitches every once in awhile. Also I think I got a little out of sync toward the end (well and throughout honestly, but as I said, I'm a bit of a noob).

And my apologies for the goofy drums. I'm using an old Alesis SR-16 and I'm trying to use all 50 of the built-in tracks. So I just went with this Ballad 2 track (sped up to make it more interesting) for this one.



I think it does a pretty good job of transitioning to the final theme in the tonic key. Unless you are paying close attention you might not notice it's not in the same key as the first two times it played. I didn't really develop good key modulations - it's practically a jump instead of a modulation. Maybe for my next attempt I can work on that. The development is also quite simple - just a descending bass-line and chord sequence. Normally a lot more would go into the development and it would use Theme 1 and Theme 2 in new ways (plus new music material). But as I said, keeping it simple!

Nice ! Indeed now I get the idea of last them2 in tonic. Very punchy , we d been waiting for it !

 

[skycruiser]

I hope the demo I posted wasn't so bad is killed of the entire thread. I'm going to give it another try with a different song but it will take some development work. Something a little more lively hopefully. This time I will attempt to tie in the development section a little better and make sure both themes have well defined melodic content. Theme 2 in the example above was basically pentatonic noodling (a bad habit of mine...)