Songs With No Key Center

[l0calh05t]

That's very intersting, but doesnt in any way contradict my point

A minor scale played over a major triad will sound 'out' to the average listener because of the semi-tone of the minor 3rd against the major 3rd.

Taking your progression, noodling in E minor over those chords, including the E Major, is all very well, but I guarantee if you started a solo on those chords on a nice long sustained G your average joe would be wincing - that is a dissonant sound.

Cmajor7-Badd#5 - this is a common, and also very nice change, down a semi-tone with a raised 5th.

Well, I agree that it doesn't sound too good when beginning on the minor third (or playing that most of the time), but I rarely like sustained thirds in the melody (even the "correct" third for the chord)

About the Cmajor7-Badd#5: are you sure it's common? because it IS Badd#5 NOT B#5 so it is B D# F# F##

 

[Howard K]

Well, I agree that it doesn't sound too good when beginning on the minor third (or playing that most of the time), but I rarely like sustained thirds in the melody (even the "correct" third for the chord)

About the Cmajor7-Badd#5: are you sure it's common? because it IS Badd#5 NOT B#5 so it is B D# F# F##

Really?! I cant even begin to imagine how many melodies rely on heavy use of 3rds over a given chord

Well, yeah, you're probably right, my guess is the ear will still hang on to the note that stays the same when the chord changes in much the same way as using the aug 5th, i.e. it;s that aug 5th that becomes the strong note, over and above the perfect 5th when the chord changes... he said, just about to go home and check this out

 

[theshadow2001]

Are you sure they're major, not dominant 7th chords?

Ok Ok blues (in its most basic form) uses dominant sevenths but what is a dominant seventh only a major chord with the dominant seventh included

A minor scale would sound generally pretty out over a major triad

The whole minor scale wouldn't sound "pretty out" over a major triad. Although A minor 3 played with a major 3 would sound out if it was sustained which i think is what your getting at, thats just one note though. The third of the minor scale can be played as a passing note or bent up to a major third(or beyond).

I like to use tri tones when i play. If you play a sustained tri tone to someone they would just wince but it can be effective if used right, especially when it comes to funk. (check out the simpsons theme when they sing "The Simpsons" at the very start a good example of a nasty sounding tri tone working well) I know tri tones are way off topic but what im getting at is something that sounds nasty or you might think sounds nasty doesnt necessarly always sound nasty

 

[l0calh05t]

Really?! I cant even begin to imagine how many melodies rely on heavy use of 3rds over a given chord

Well, yeah, you're probably right, my guess is the ear will still hang on to the note that stays the same when the chord changes in much the same way as using the aug 5th, i.e. it;s that aug 5th that becomes the strong note, over and above the perfect 5th when the chord changes... he said, just about to go home and check this out

Yes really!
Of course lots of melodies use 3rds over a given chord, but mostly this sounds kinda lame imo, I prefer mainly using the 5th, 6th and 7th of a chord for melody stuff.

 

[Andrew Jones]

E,C,A,D right?

Emaj7,Cmaj7#11,Amaj#11,D7#11.

Imaj7 duh. Ionain Mode

Flat VI maj7 Lydian

IV maj7 Lydian

Flat VII dom7 Lydian Dominant (mixo#11)

Play the Progresion with the Sharp elevens and the with natural11 I think you hear E as home very clearly with the tensions.(notice there all from the Key of E)

If we realy have a Flat 7 major seven its definetly Justifiable its just that Four->Flat seven7 is very cliche. infact the root motion is the same so it woulf be a tip of the hat that way any way.


Flat VII maj#11

Simple harmony Definetly in E



Aj

 

[l0calh05t]

Andrew, you wouldn't happen to know how the equivalent to phrygian mode of harmonic minor would be called? (e.g. phrygian with a major 3rd)

 

[Andrew Jones]

No, Sorry I dont. I need to return to shoulin and Train



Buda be Praised


Aj

 

[Richard Lindsey]

E,C,A,D right?

Emaj7,Cmaj7#11,Amaj#11,D7#11.

Imaj7 duh. Ionain Mode

Flat VI maj7 Lydian

IV maj7 Lydian

Flat VII dom7 Lydian Dominant (mixo#11)

Play the Progresion with the Sharp elevens and the with natural11 I think you hear E as home very clearly with the tensions.(notice there all from the Key of E)

If we realy have a Flat 7 major seven its definetly Justifiable its just that Four->Flat seven7 is very cliche. infact the root motion is the same so it woulf be a tip of the hat that way any way.


Flat VII maj#11

Simple harmony Definetly in E



Aj

But where are you getting all the extensions from? The original poster never said anything about them. He just said all the chords were major. There's no earthly reason to assume all the extensions. Sometimes a major chord is just meant as a major chord. I've been around enough untutored and non-jazz guitarists to know that.

 

[Andrew Jones]

He asked What Modes do I use?

Tensions are there to illistrate what modes to use.and Visa Versa.

Also as I said they will support the sound of the key center


Oh yah Flat VII maj7.Lydian


Aj

 

[Richard Lindsey]

He asked What Modes do I use?

Tensions are there to illistrate what modes to use.and Visa Versa.

Also as I said they will support the sound of the key center


Oh yah Flat VII maj7.Lydian


Aj

But see, you don't know what modes to use unless you know what the quality of the chord is and what the desired sound is, and you just made up the quality of the chords! That is, you decided that those chords have the extensions you decided they should have, regardless of what they may actually be. That's no crime, I'm not trying to piss on your shoes, but it's probably not going to help him much. What if all those extensions don't belong in the song, according to the guy who wrote it? Some simple things just are what they are, and can't profitably be forced onto the Procrustean bed of "legit" classical or jazz harmony. It's counterproductive to play a 7#11 when a simple major is what's wanted.

It's equally possible that the sound the guitarist and/or band wants could be gotten by something much simpler, e.g., playing E mixolydian over the E, C lydian over the C, A ionian (or mixolydian) over the A, and D lydian (or ionian) over the D. Or by playing E natural minor pentatonic under the whole thing (and living with the dissonance with the Amaj), for all we know.

Jackyl said this was a *rock band*, remember. A lot of rock just uses simple chords (which of course is not a bad thing, jsut an observation). Applying jazz concepts to it often just isn't that relevant.

 

[Andrew Jones]

Mabye you should reread the original post?

Its fairly "OPEN" I'd say.


All I did was take a set of Cords and Justify them in relation to E major. I didnt change one note. then I simply added the Right Modes IE tentions to further support my Lesson. would I want to hear all those sharp 11 cords like that?No.

I was simply trying to open ears.


By the way the beatles Implied and used complex Jazz harmonies With Triads all day long. Rock Band?

The Police? dont even get me started.


Aj

 

[geshel]

Andrew, you wouldn't happen to know how the equivalent to phrygian mode of harmonic minor would be called? (e.g. phrygian with a major 3rd)

If you mean the 5th mode of harmonic minor (eg, for D harmonic minor, the mode beginning on A: A, Bb, C#, D, E, F, G), the Turkish name for that is "hijaz". It is essentially a Phrygian with a major third, yes, but "the phrygian mode of harmonic minor" I would initially assume to mean the 3rd mode (the one beginning on F in this case - which would be an augmented scale, major7#5).

Hmm, [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] says it's a Greek scale too. All the names they list are Turkish though I think? heh, oh well.

I think I've also heard it called "Spanish major".

 

[l0calh05t]

Mabye you should reread the original post?

Its fairly "OPEN" I'd say.


All I did was take a set of Cords and Justify them in relation to E major. I didnt change one note. then I simply added the Right Modes IE tentions to further support my Lesson. would I want to hear all those sharp 11 cords like that?No.

I was simply trying to open ears.


By the way the beatles Implied and used complex Jazz harmonies With Triads all day long. Rock Band?

The Police? dont even get me started.


Aj

Dunno about the police, but you sure are right about the beatles, the harmony is certainly based on Jazz harmony

 

[l0calh05t]

If you mean the 5th mode of harmonic minor (eg, for D harmonic minor, the mode beginning on A: A, Bb, C#, D, E, F, G), the Turkish name for that is "hijaz". It is essentially a Phrygian with a major third, yes, but "the phrygian mode of harmonic minor" I would initially assume to mean the 3rd mode (the one beginning on F in this case - which would be an augmented scale, major7#5).

Hmm, [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] says it's a Greek scale too. All the names they list are Turkish though I think? heh, oh well.

I think I've also heard it called "Spanish major".

Well, by "the equivalent to phrygian mode of harmonic minor" i meant the same as take the phrygian mode and raise the tone that would be the seventh of the corresponding aeolian mode.

I just did a search a few minutes ago and i found it refferred to as "Spanish Phrygian" and "Spanish Major", and it sure sounds quite spanish imo.

EDIT: And i just found out that the Hijazskiar (same thing except with major 7th) sounds nice

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Mabye you should reread the original post?

Its fairly "OPEN" I'd say.


All I did was take a set of Cords and Justify them in relation to E major. I didnt change one note. then I simply added the Right Modes IE tentions to further support my Lesson. would I want to hear all those sharp 11 cords like that?No.

I was simply trying to open ears.


By the way the beatles Implied and used complex Jazz harmonies With Triads all day long. Rock Band?

The Police? dont even get me started.


Aj

Opening ears is totally cool. As long as we remember that playing cool chords and modes has no inherent value if it's not working within the musical context.

About justifying the chords in E major, that's cool too, but let me just point out that it's not necessary. Why should any set of chords have to be justifiable in any key? Not all music fits into what we think of as functional harmony. Quite a lot of rock, folk, and ethnic doesn't. The music comes first; theory is a secondary, derivative phenomenon.

And trust me--you don't have to tell me about the Beatles and the Police. I'm old enough to remember.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Hmm, [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] says it's a Greek scale too. All the names they list are Turkish though I think? heh, oh well.

Probably the result of Greece being part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries. Greek coffee is a lot like Turkish coffee, too.

 

[Andrew Jones]

About justifying the chords in E major, that's cool too, but let me just point out that it's not necessary. Why should any set of chords have to be justifiable in any key?

Perhaps you should reread the first post or more importantly the Title of the thread?

As long as we remember that playing cool chords and modes has no inherent value if it's not working within the musical context.

I take it you assume with out ever hearing any music that I'm involved in that just because I know a little bit about harmony that I need to reminded/told this? I'm insulted. I've aloud you enough time to figure out that your theme is not aimed at the public at large but at me in direct conversation.Its just your theme is so obvious that I thought you have the sence to relieze that.Mabye you should forget about music and consentrate on Words Come on "and can't profitably be forced onto the Procrustean bed of "legit" classical or jazz harmony." This is SO Forced and Trite and reaks of arrogance.

Quite a lot of rock, folk, and ethnic doesn't.

While this is True taken at face value. the Truth is that a TRUMENDOUS amount of these Genre are very definable by Functional harmony. You just have to have enough of a understanding of functional to know what has been defined.


Actually the Genres the Disolves Functional harmony most often is......... Jazz and Contempary Classical music.



Go on say your worst I'm done since I will not respond you can just feel that you've backed me into a corner I i'm crying in shame
Aj

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Perhaps you should reread the first post or more importantly the Title of the thread?



I take it you assume with out ever hearing any music that I'm involved in that just because I know a little bit about harmony that I need to reminded/told this? I'm insulted. I've aloud you enough time to figure out that your theme is not aimed at the public at large but at me in direct conversation.Its just your theme is so obvious that I thought you have the sence to relieze that.Mabye you should forget about music and consentrate on Words Come on "and can't profitably be forced onto the Procrustean bed of "legit" classical or jazz harmony." This is SO Forced and Trite and reaks of arrogance.




While this is True taken at face value. the Truth is that a TRUMENDOUS amount of these Genre are very definable by Functional harmony. You just have to have enough of a understanding of functional to know what has been defined.


Actually the Genres the Disolves Functional harmony most often is......... Jazz and Contempary Classical music.



Go on say your worst I'm done since I will not respond you can just feel that you've backed me into a corner I i'm crying in shame
Aj

You haven't been insulted. You've heard somebody tell you that what you suggested doesn't make a lot of useful sense in terms of the situation originally described. There's a difference.

If anything, you've tried to insult me. Read your post again, and read my posts again.

Here's a suggestion for free: don't make things personal that aren't.

 

[Andrew Jones]

I'll try again


Yo Jackel


Can you lay out the rythmic value of the cords IE How many beats each and when things Loop.

Can you Show me where you think Mixolydian sounds good?(this could be a good indication of if you hear a Dominat 7th but guitar is playing Major triads.

If you have any melody notes.Phrases anything.


What I was doing before was pointing that even If that first part is all Major7th cords. Its Probally in E Major. It might sound a little ambiguous but there is some thing you can do to strengthen the sound.

Now there are notes that will support the sound of home when you play a cord. Sometime home is Dirty Bluesally,some time somber minortown Ect........

I gave you the Sound Majorville.Why? cause you said all the Cords are major.

All the notes that I mades a big deal out of is to reiforce the sound of Emajor,

#11 on Cmaj7 is F# or the sound in Emajor. F is not going to sound like Emaj

#11 ON A MAJ7 D# right out of Emag.D is not going to sound E major

#11 on D is G# now this ones real important its the 3 of Emajor the most important note! G is not going to give you that same Inside majorville sound.

Now I segested that your D cord could be Dominant.Is this a place wher you hear that Mixo D,C,B? I'll assume possibly for 2 reason one Four moving to FlatvII7 is very common.2nd is that note (the C) was the root of a cord just a sec ago and these are the type of theing that make things sound related.


AJ

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Opening ears is totally cool. As long as we remember that playing cool chords and modes has no inherent value if it's not working within the musical context.

About justifying the chords in E major, that's cool too, but let me just point out that it's not necessary. Why should any set of chords have to be justifiable in any key? Not all music fits into what we think of as functional harmony. Quite a lot of rock, folk, and ethnic doesn't. The music comes first; theory is a secondary, derivative phenomenon.

I agree with you Richard and think this is probably what's happening here....I've heard some piano players add in extensions in music that didn't need them and it sounded horrible - so like, in South African Township music, where the basic triad is specified and obviously the piano player has got bored and added in all these other notes - same can happen with Reggae - the piano needs to play one simple chord on the off beat!!