SOUNDCHECK: CREDIBILITY KILLERS 101

[RoadRanger]

You also have to realize that the typical "buddies of the band" are as hearing impaired as the guys in the band and I'm not going to drive the rest of the audience out just to satisfy them. It's quite common for audience members (and venue owners) to come up to me and thank me for not hurting them. But ... that doesn't exactly endear me to the stoopid loud bands hence my recent emphasis on playing instead of doing sound .

 

[Steve Dallman]

I've done sound for quite a few concerts which included some well known professionals. I was there to help, make the band, artist, etc, sound as good as possible, and make it a great experience for everyone. For the most part I was met with the same attitude from the performers.

I've played since the mid 60's. Musicians are often high strung or eccentric, often with huge egos. Add to that sleep deprivation, poor diet, and alcohol and/or drugs and things can get touchy. Many sound people fit the same template or are even sick of dealing with musicians and their problems. Problems in waiting.

Our Christian band in the 80's used to play a festival every year. I gave the soundmen a list of the songs we'd do, a picture of the band with our names, and short notes on each song detailing who would be singing each song and if there would be harmonies.

Waste of time. All we got was a screwed up mix with way too much kick. From then on, I brought our own mixer, and monitors and sent the main mixer three signals...all the vocals, all the instruments except for bass and kick, and a line with bass and kick mixed. That worked. The mix was always good from then on, and since they couldn't turn up the kick without turning up the bass guitar, things stayed balanced.

We did a TV show. I sent the control booth one line with all the voices, and one line with all the instruments including the drums. All they had to do is mix vocals with the instruments.

The show hit the air and all there was were the voices. They neglected to turn up the instruments...at all. Some people can screw up anything.

 

[RoadRanger]

^ Oy Vey !

 

[walterw]

All of your suggestions are good, but my point is that there is often a difference of opinion on the ROLE of the soundman. If the soundman thinks his job is to get you to sound good as HE considers good, not what you consider good, then it doesn't matter how much information you give him.

ah yes!

the soundguy really needs to understand the basic genre of the music you're trying to put across.

i got to watch a show with a very good classic rock cover band doing essentially "the dark side of Oz", where they played that entire floyd album while "wizard of Oz" played on a screen behind them;

this is not easy, the drummer apparently had to spend a few days manually creating a "non-click click track" of the whole album for himself to follow, counting in all the songs at the right time to sync everything up with the movie;

after all that work and in front of a packed house (halloween show), the band nailed the music beautifully, but all i could focus on was the goddamn skull-crushing clacky speed-metal kick drum wrecking the mix!

it's like the soundguy had never actually heard dark side of the moon.

 

[One Drop]

ah yes!

the soundguy really needs to understand the basic genre of the music you're trying to put across.

i got to watch a show with a very good classic rock cover band doing essentially "the dark side of Oz", where they played that entire floyd album while "wizard of Oz" played on a screen behind them;

this is not easy, the drummer apparently had to spend a few days manually creating a "non-click click track" of the whole album for himself to follow, counting in all the songs at the right time to sync everything up with the movie;

after all that work and in front of a packed house (halloween show), the band nailed the music beautifully, but all i could focus on was the goddamn skull-crushing clacky speed-metal kick drum wrecking the mix!

it's like the soundguy had never actually heard dark side of the moon.

I'm actually convinced many current sound men simply will not consider a mix proper unless the kick drum is not a mile wide and twice as loud as everything else.

I had an interesting day last Saturday visiting Toronto when I met with some friends for the afternoon, and we wandered around town including checking out a few stages set up with various bands as entertainment during the Panamerican games.

There was one constant at all the stages at both outdoor squares; excellent backline and FOH gear, good clean mids and highs with clear vocals, and bass that was mostly rumble with over-loud booming kick that obscured the rest of the mix and was actually obnoxious to the point of being exhausting. The bands were all pros with good instruments and they knew how to play them.

We were quite fed up after just a few minutes and had the exquisite luck as to duck into an long established bar that had an amazingly natural and beautifully balanced PA lightly supporting a 15 piece jazz big band that had perfect control of their levels and whose finely crafted sound was just pure pleasure to experience, being bathed in good instrument and vocal sound rather than being pummeled by abused technology.

 

[RoadRanger]

it's like the soundguy had never actually heard dark side of the moon.

That's what you get when you cheese out and hire the $75 soundguy .

 

[JimmyM]

I am so glad you brought that up. I wish all sound techs would learn that the single most important signal on that stage is not the bass drum, but the mic of whoever sings lead. And just because it's called a bass doesn't mean that it should have no mids and treble.

 

[RoadRanger]

I'm actually convinced many current sound men simply will not consider a mix proper unless the kick drum is not a mile wide and twice as loud as everything else.

IME you're absolutely correct about what "real" soundfolk refer to as "lead kick". Unfortunately the bands that DON'T want it that way are in the minority - and those are the ones I try to work with .

 

[RoadRanger]

I am so glad you brought that up. I wish all sound techs would learn that the single most important signal on that stage is not the bass drum, but the mic of whoever sings lead. And just because it's called a bass doesn't mean that it should have no mids and treble.

Absolutely! And main reasons why I went 100% sound gigs when I came back into music after 20 years off - until I found that most folks don't really care about sound quality at the lower levels where I thought I could make a difference. Stoopid Loud is the new Good I guess.

And oh hey, guess as a Supporting Member it's OK to offer my services to the locals here, 1/2 off the first sound gig if you can convince me your band doesn't suck . I only had 10 gigs last month (two were sound with a third rained out), plenty room for more LOL. Oh, and two of those playing gigs were two sets with two different bands (multiband benefits). Oh, and I'm only in five bands, looking to add a Country band to the mix.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I am so glad you brought that up. I wish all sound techs would learn that the single most important signal on that stage is not the bass drum, but the mic of whoever sings lead. And just because it's called a bass doesn't mean that it should have no mids and treble.

even fools on stools with those dinkydi foot stomp trigger things who try to drill you through with doof doof doof doof out of their little vocal PA.

 

[musicman7722]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything in that article that lead me to believe that he was anything but dead serious. It's strange that on this, a bass player's forum, soundmen seem to be able to say any insulting thing they want, but bass players have to watch what they say. I like the old biker's saying, "Treat me good I'll treat you better, treat me bad I'll treat you worse."

If you go back and look at the original post it was posted from another source and not original to here so I don't think your argument holds up.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Well, the author in the article definitely could have restated his points in more diplomatic language. While I understand he's not a sound engineer, in just about any profession where you deal with clients or the public, a certain amount of things will begin to seriously irk you.

With that said, I think it can easily be said that some musicians really do need schooled by sound engineers. There are too many bands running around with singers who have no mic technique but make completely off the wall monitor mix requests, guitarists who think Mids on 0 and Gain on 10 sounds good, and drummers who can't tune their drums. By the same token, there are too many sound techs running around who push the kick too hard, take all the definition and character out of the bass, can't get the vocals above the mix without feedback, and have that blurry, warbly mid-range in thier mix. But when a band with a great sound and engineer with good mixing chops and technical knowledge come together, it's one of the best live musical experiences out there.

 

[lfmn16]

If you go back and look at the original post it was posted from another source and not original to here so I don't think your argument holds up.

You are missing the context. My comment was in reference to "Sort of a Swift'ian writing device ?" not the original post.

 

[JMacBass65]

And there we have the rub. People in this thread insist on talking about hypotheticals and absolutes. Truth is that entertainment is a team sport.

Exactly

 

[4Mal]

You are missing the context. My comment was in reference to "Sort of a Swift'ian writing device ?" not the original post.

For what it's worth, my Swiftian device comment was an attempt to be charitable and point out that the linked article had some truth to it - buried under a layer of unpleasantness no doubt. Still, truth... If you didn't read it that way, or can't get to the truths he pointed out, then my apologies for the Swiftian device comment.

My modest proposal is that this thread lost it's relevance a few pages back...

On another note, I did a band called Rootz Underground last night. They were fly in and I had to provide backline. For the bass amp my MB-Fusion and fearful setup. (12.6 and 12.sub) I put a country man between him and the amp. Spent some time at the board (4 band semi parametric on each channel). He seemed to like it and sounded great out front. These guys are the real thing. US and European summer tours. One of the best shows I've worked in an age. They are just starting their west coast swing.

If you can catch them - just do it. Tight ? Oh yes!

If you can get to be crew, these are some of the most gracious folks I have ever had the pleasure to work with.

They were playing a celebration for an old friend that used to teach windsurfing on Jamaica. Very compressed schedule and not the cleanest stage ... Happily nobody died in that mass of cable...

 

[Downunderwonder]

For what it's worth, my Swiftian device comment was an attempt to be charitable and point out that the linked article had some truth to it - buried under a layer of unpleasantness no doubt. Still, truth... If you didn't read it that way, or can't get to the truths he pointed out, then my apologies for the Swiftian device comment.

My modest proposal is that this thread lost it's relevance a few pages back...

On another note, I did a band called Rootz Underground last night. They were fly in and I had to provide backline. For the bass amp my MB-Fusion and fearful setup. (12.6 and 12.sub) I put a country man between him and the amp. Spent some time at the board (4 band semi parametric on each channel). He seemed to like it and sounded great out front. These guys are the real thing. US and European summer tours. One of the best shows I've worked in an age. They are just starting their west coast swing.

If you can catch them - just do it. Tight ? Oh yes!

If you can get to be crew, these are some of the most gracious folks I have ever had the pleasure to work with.

They were playing a celebration for an old friend that used to teach windsurfing on Jamaica. Very compressed schedule and not the cleanest stage ... Happily nobody died in that mass of cable... View attachment 654174 View attachment 654172

flat as the fearful cabs are, outdoors even, why on earth pre DI?

 

[lfmn16]

For what it's worth, my Swiftian device comment was an attempt to be charitable and point out that the linked article had some truth to it - buried under a layer of unpleasantness no doubt. Still, truth... If you didn't read it that way, or can't get to the truths he pointed out, then my apologies for the Swiftian device comment.

We're good, no apology necessary. I get what you were saying, you're just more charitable than me. My only point was that I didn't see any humor in his rant. I think he was just trying to be the big shot and show us stupid musicians who was boss. I also agree that he had some valid points under all the bluff, bluster and braggadocio, it was just that he was being such a blow-hole, it was hard to read.

 

[Geri O]

flat as the fearful cabs are, outdoors even, why on earth pre DI?

Why not...

The answer is for all the reasons that have come up every time this question is posed under any circumstances. The answers are still wide and varied.

Personally, I would have used both mic and DI. But that's just a preference I had when I was mixing.

I used both for two reasons. One, I wanted to see how I could make the best of both worlds into a solid bass tone. Two, it allayed any concerns and wishes of the bassist if he preferred a mic on his cabinet. And out of several hundred bassists over the years, no one ever objected to using both DI and mic.

We are getting off in the weeds a bit, but when I ran into a bassist using effects (distortion, envelope, chorus, etc.), the effects seemed to be a bit smoother coming from his cabinet. That's not a hard and fast absolute, just a preference of mine.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Why not...

The answer is for all the reasons that have come up every time this question is posed under any circumstances. The answers are still wide and varied.

Personally, I would have used both mic and DI. But that's just a preference I had when I was mixing.

I used both for two reasons. One, I wanted to see how I could make the best of both worlds into a solid bass tone. Two, it allayed any concerns and wishes of the bassist if he preferred a mic on his cabinet. And out of several hundred bassists over the years, no one ever objected to using both DI and mic.

We are getting off in the weeds a bit, but when I ran into a bassist using effects (distortion, envelope, chorus, etc.), the effects seemed to be a bit smoother coming from his cabinet. That's not a hard and fast absolute, just a preference of mine.

Zero room acoustics to colour a bassist's perception of his tone. A perfectly good DI in the Fusion. And doesn't that Countryman have speaker optio?

Beggars belief that a FF owner and bassist would want to do over the stage sound with a console when he could have it readymade.

 

[One Drop]

For what it's worth, my Swiftian device comment was an attempt to be charitable and point out that the linked article had some truth to it - buried under a layer of unpleasantness no doubt. Still, truth... If you didn't read it that way, or can't get to the truths he pointed out, then my apologies for the Swiftian device comment.

My modest proposal is that this thread lost it's relevance a few pages back...

On another note, I did a band called Rootz Underground last night. They were fly in and I had to provide backline. For the bass amp my MB-Fusion and fearful setup. (12.6 and 12.sub) I put a country man between him and the amp. Spent some time at the board (4 band semi parametric on each channel). He seemed to like it and sounded great out front. These guys are the real thing. US and European summer tours. One of the best shows I've worked in an age. They are just starting their west coast swing.

If you can catch them - just do it. Tight ? Oh yes!

If you can get to be crew, these are some of the most gracious folks I have ever had the pleasure to work with.

They were playing a celebration for an old friend that used to teach windsurfing on Jamaica. Very compressed schedule and not the cleanest stage ... Happily nobody died in that mass of cable... View attachment 654174 View attachment 654172

I'll check them out when I have time- they certainly get full style points!