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Speaker Cab Design Question
- Thread starter bodan
- Start date
on an aside about the delta 15a, there are a couple good reasons emperor uses them...
1. they're a speaker made to sound vintage while having ridiculous power handling. despite having a low xmax and not a lot of low lows, you can get close to a legit 300w into one of them. i've pinned my lmii and ran it into one of my b-15 cabs with a delta, and it handled it. its tone is also identical to the old cts speakers in the 65-68 b-15's.
2. it's $90 and emperor probably gets a good deal for buying in quantity.
on paper, i admit they don't look great. but if you like that vintage ampeg tone, they work really well.
1. they're a speaker made to sound vintage while having ridiculous power handling. despite having a low xmax and not a lot of low lows, you can get close to a legit 300w into one of them. i've pinned my lmii and ran it into one of my b-15 cabs with a delta, and it handled it. its tone is also identical to the old cts speakers in the 65-68 b-15's.
2. it's $90 and emperor probably gets a good deal for buying in quantity.
on paper, i admit they don't look great. but if you like that vintage ampeg tone, they work really well.
T
tifftunes
Guest
I realize this will get flamed, but my two favorite cabinets in the last 40 years of playing bass are the smaller Fender Showman 2x15 (used 1 or 2 of them for a decade with great results), and the highly despised (not big enough blah, blah, blah) Vox T-100 2x15 cab McCartney used live. Check out The Beatles live vids on youtube (probably Shea Stadium) for verification. His single 2x15 cabinet, driven by one 100 watt tube head sounded pretty good to me!
I've also built a few of my own versions of Leo Fender's 2x15 Showman cabinet. Loaded it with EVM15Ls 'til Eminence came out with the Delta series, then the Kappa series speakers. I miss the sound so much (in fact using a CAD speaker design program, the Vox and Fender cabs are nearly identical), I am currently building another for my T-100 "trolley." IME, and opinion, it is the easiest cab to build, and will give you a very satisfying sound - mid dominant, but not terribly bass shy. The lower frequencies are rolled off (smoothly), but not gone. My Blues band never said "more bass," and when others sat in, I could always "feel" the low end.
True enough that a sealed cab isn't as loud below 150 hz as a tuned ported cabinet would be. But no cross-over needed, and huge xmax isn't required either...
If you play in a "drop D" rock band, or need your B string tuned down to G, chances are you'll need a "sub" style cab. But for the majority of classic rock, and blues, your idea of 1 or 2 sealed 2x15 cabinets would be fine. And the good thing is, if you build it, and don't like it, you can actually add ports and tune the cabs to your liking later... This idea will no doubt get flamed as well. But having done this myself I can attest to the performance of both a sealed cab, and a modified cab (porting a sealed cab).
As stated, each pair of ears hears differently... When I worked at Guitar Center WWAAYY back in the early 80s, I couldn't sell anything BUT the BIGGEST bass cabs... Even though Ampeg already offered ported 2x10 cabs... And, by the way, I had a pair of the Ampeg 2x10 cabs... They really did suck! The last 10s cab I liked was the sealed 8x10 Ampeg "fridge." I just got tired of hauling it around the country!
I've also built a few of my own versions of Leo Fender's 2x15 Showman cabinet. Loaded it with EVM15Ls 'til Eminence came out with the Delta series, then the Kappa series speakers. I miss the sound so much (in fact using a CAD speaker design program, the Vox and Fender cabs are nearly identical), I am currently building another for my T-100 "trolley." IME, and opinion, it is the easiest cab to build, and will give you a very satisfying sound - mid dominant, but not terribly bass shy. The lower frequencies are rolled off (smoothly), but not gone. My Blues band never said "more bass," and when others sat in, I could always "feel" the low end.
True enough that a sealed cab isn't as loud below 150 hz as a tuned ported cabinet would be. But no cross-over needed, and huge xmax isn't required either...
If you play in a "drop D" rock band, or need your B string tuned down to G, chances are you'll need a "sub" style cab. But for the majority of classic rock, and blues, your idea of 1 or 2 sealed 2x15 cabinets would be fine. And the good thing is, if you build it, and don't like it, you can actually add ports and tune the cabs to your liking later... This idea will no doubt get flamed as well. But having done this myself I can attest to the performance of both a sealed cab, and a modified cab (porting a sealed cab).
As stated, each pair of ears hears differently... When I worked at Guitar Center WWAAYY back in the early 80s, I couldn't sell anything BUT the BIGGEST bass cabs... Even though Ampeg already offered ported 2x10 cabs... And, by the way, I had a pair of the Ampeg 2x10 cabs... They really did suck! The last 10s cab I liked was the sealed 8x10 Ampeg "fridge." I just got tired of hauling it around the country!
But isn't "sound better" subjective? Saying a setup will give better low end response or boosted mids or whatever is fact, but saying that the overall sound will be better compared to another setup is very much an opinion, IMO.
Maybe my understanding of things is a little flawed in the cab construction area, but wouldn't a ported 2x15 give him more lows coupled with a sealed 2x10 or 2x12 give him midrange punch and the sound of the two combined give him what he wants? Or is the idea of getting your sound from multiple sources like that just completely out of style or whatever? For whatever reason, that's how I always looked at things, using different sounding cabs together to get a single desired tone.
Of course the science is great to know. It helped me figure out why arranging my cabs one way sounded really inconsistent from different places in front of it and why arranging them another way works perfect (for me) and sounds consistent.
It is very true that the sound one likes is opinion, but that "like" colors the way we hear. So no two people are ever going to hear the same thing, even out of the same rig, much less even agree on whether it sounds good or not. The only thing that truly determines the output of a given cab are measurable facts. Whether one likes that output is totally subjective. Which is why I quantified my post with, if it sounds good, then it is good.
That's all that really matters. But when someone just dismisses the science (believing it to be opinion), it just makes me wonder. It would be like 2+2=4 yet some just prefer the number 5 and it's close enough, even though with recommendations and facts, they could achieve 4. Fine by me, anyone can do as they wish and that is not what I have a problem with.
Things like phase cancellation. I can't even count the number of times people have just said it doesn't matter, but then they can't put their finger on why their rig doesn't always sound good. Hmmm, perhaps they aren't always standing right in front of their rig (that has speakers side by side, or mixed and side by side)? Phase cancellation. Is it a big deal? Overall no, but it might be if someone actually took the advice of many experts here and eliminated the phase cancellation instead of ignoring it and going on "settling" for less than ideal sound. And that is but one aspect that is not an opinion. That person's rig will sound good, but only if they are standing right in front of it, and they already admitted it doesn't when standing elsewhere but don't know why. Yet they still choose to ignore the facts.
As far as liking the tone of old, vintage speakers and cabs. That's very cool. But one can easily cop the tone of those vintage cabs with modern designs and technology (I'm talking cabs here, not heads...though the technology with SS and effects is narrowing the gap with all tube heads). Speakers and cabs produce frequencies based on their design. The old vintage stuff does not have magic fairy dust sprinkled over them that causes them to sound different than anything one can come up with today.
As those mentioned, the old cabs of yesteryear worked great and sounded great and still may today. But why, when more modern designs not only can duplicate that tone, they can do so with more power handling, get far louder (if need be, without damaging the speakers) and be lighter, would anyone insist that the old way is the only way? I'm not talking about what is commercially available because what is out there (for the most part) leaves a lot to be desired. I'm talking about DIY from one's own design or existing new designs. We have cabinets now that are truly flat sounding, all the way down low. Some will say they don't like that, but with a flat design, one can EQ it to sound ANY way you want. Not so with a design that exaggerates a group of frequencies more than others. And it is precisely these exaggerations that people become enamored with, thinking cab A is better than cab B. If a bass cab is truly flat, it could sound like A and B.
It is the same thinking that makes people so defensive about a Fender P-Bass. Only a P-Bass sounds that way. No, thanks to modern technology a lot of new basses can sound that way, but you'll never convince a P-bass lover (which I am) that it's possible.
We listen with our ears, but also with a subjective mind. Don't let facts get in the way of that, right? And still despite my rambling, it all still boils down to...
If it sounds good, it is good.
way below that, hell I can get em for under $60 ea and I buy from a wholesaler not direct like them. They are probably paying in the range of $30 ea
Most rigs have some flaw or another.
Mine's a mixed driver rig. Phase cancellation issues are probable. But it sounds good. To me.
Mine's a mixed driver rig. Phase cancellation issues are probable. But it sounds good. To me.
Mr. Foxen
Commercial User
The Tmaxx is a good sounding head, I use a Maxx preamp and peavey power amp, so pretty much the same. That is the sort of head that will benefit from a well designed ported cabinet. If you want to make your own, hit the fearful threads and make one of those, because the techy groundwork is done for you.
A sealed cab isn't really optimisable, choose speakers that suit ported cabs and make the box as big as you can is about it. The air pressure difference between inside and outside is what chokes the lows, so bigger means a bigger spring to stretch. If you want to make a big cab, aim for around 225 liters volume and a port tuning of around 44hz (using winisd) and load it is Eminence delta 12LFA, that's pretty much what I am using and it is as much as you'll ever need (Aguilar GS412).
I'm not smart enough to use WinISD. It seems to have a learning curve. What would happen if I emulated the Electric Amp 4x15 but with Eminence Kappalite 3015's? They seem to be designed for ported boxes, but even with my n00bish attempts to use WinISD, the graphs aren't showing anything really weird, just a roll-off of the deep lows, and fairly flat above there. I could be doing something wrong, though.
this would only work if the cab you are copying is using the same speakers, or speakers with T/S parameters very similar to the 3015.
Mr. Foxen
Commercial User
WinISD gets a bit inaccurate above 200hz, the roll off might be roughly right, but the flat bit will be lumpier in real, and lumps there are in the midrange where you really hear it.
Kappalites will be wasted in a sealed cab, you'll probably get better performance from drivers noted as suiting a sealed cab, and they will be cheaper.
Really its a case of copy the cab, or figure your own cab, but not mixing the two.
If you let me know which speaker you're interested in using, I can punch the numbers into WinISD and calculate cabinet volume and such for you. Let me know.
Remember, a sealed cab will have a significant roll-off in the lows compared with a reflex cab. You can also use an equalizer to attain the tone you want.
You can't just throw speakers into any old box. Eminence says explicitly that the Kappalite 3015 does not belong in a sealed box.
i tried the winisd also with no luck, any advice or anywhere to read on how to use this program. i am wanting to build a lighter 115 using the 3015 to go under my avatar210. i want to have the cabs the same depth and width so they stack nicely and dont know how tall to make it for the correct volume and vent size
Have you read the "How to begin" in the Help section? You need to - from start to finish. It tells you everything from selecting/creating drivers to how to interpret the graph results. This is not a fast process by any means. I have a 2x12 I want to try to build when the weather gets warmer in a few months and I spents hours upon hours figuring everything out, including quite a bit of hand-written math converting numbers and figuring things out like the volume of the internal bracing I want to use, which then had to be subtracted from the total internal volume.
Make sure when you calculate your cabinet's total dimensions that you take the thickness of the plywood you use into account. If your cab is 24" wide on the outside, it will be less so on the inside.
Rick Auricchio
Registered Bass Offender
You need to be careful, because there are a few important graphs.
One is the frequency-response plot.
One is the max SPL graph. Tells you how loud the cab should get. If it looks weak, there's no sense building it.
Another is the excursion graph, which tells you at what frequency (and at how many watts) the speaker will fart out. That becomes your practical power limit, because if you're over that power and hit that magic note, you can damage the speaker.
Disclaimer: I've only fired up WinISD once or twice and am not an expert at all.
i have downloaded the beta and pro programs, is this correct as there are several programs to down load.thanks
thanks ill try it again. i am a very skilled carpentry i just have to figure out what to build.lol
