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Speaker decision

Deltas and Betas are kind of the go-to for old school cabs such as your Kustom. I've got Deltas in my B-15 cabs and they sing. Mine are the A's, though, not the B's. Still, I think they're your best overall choice out of what's out there.


Usually when a manufacturer specs an 8 and 16 ohm driver as the same model, I believe their T/S characteristics be pretty similar other than impedance. Although I don't have a full understanding of T/S specs, there appears to be a bit of difference between the Delta 15A and Delta 15B. One spec I do understand is the Delta 15B has way less Xmax at 1.60mm versus 2.7mm for the Delta 15A. This seems strange since both drivers have the same Xlim. Given the OP's amps, I think an 8 ohm driver is a better choice anyway.

Converting the cab to sealed might be a good call, but the bass will roll off well above 100hz and I am pretty sure the MarkBass can provide way more power than a pair of Delta 15s can handle. May not be much to worry about with the Kustom B200. I found a thread that says it makes a bit less than 100W at 4 ohms.

According to the generic info in the spec sheets, the Delta Pro 15A is supposed to work in smaller cabs than than the Delta 15A and 15B. I have attached the spec sheet for each driver. Look at the top of the far right column under Recommended Enclosure Volume. Of course actual modeling may prove this info wrong. I also included the Eminence Loudspeaker Selection Guide, so it is convenient to see the various 15s Eminence makes. I believe the Kappa Pro 15B is discontinued.
 
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So I was trying to figure out "Where am I going wrong? Why did only one person answer the question that was actually asked?" Then I had it! Thus =====> Since I actually have real gear, why not hypothesize a potential driver for the sake of argument, then hopefully I can understand something better. Bad move on my part, now you want to 'fix' my 'problem.' So, I have no gear. None whatsoever. No gear, no 'situation,' no project. In reality, I do have the gear, and I do need to pop in new drivers on this cab, and my concern beyond that is none of anyone's business. However, I know you mean well, so thank you. FWIW: 9.5" deep x 33" h x 20.75" wide, insulated interior, 2 circular vent tubes 4 3/8" long and 3.5" in diameter, note that many think these Kustom cabs are sealed due to the way the backplanes are attached, they are in fact ported cabs, and I aim to install 2x 15" woofers. Nobody needs to understand what I am trying to accomplish or presume what it is I know and don't know to answer the questions. I know you think you do. You don't. I am just a horribly bad question-asker and don't understand humans at all. So, to restate, hopefully better this time; For a given driver...
- assume correct impedance matching between drivers and amp
- assume the driver has been correctly selected according to cab measurements and whatever else
- consider a mismatch between nominal amp power and driver rated power, as measured in watts
- assume that despite the aforementioned power mismatch, it is not a complete and total mismatch, there *IS* a range on the volume control where the amount of clean sound produced is use-able. Since use-able is difficult to define, think of it as a thing where a note value of some sort (as opposed to 'that noise') can be distinguished through the effect of a stomp box such as a flanger, instead of the signal merely triggering the effect and you hear the effect more than the note.
- Considering decibels produced per watt for a given volume control range (please do not 'teach' me the relationship between wattage and decibels, and if you interpret this as an invitation to do so, you're not paying attention, stop, go back, start reading again) with no farting, clipping, or distortion ===>

Situation A: Amp power is under-matched compared to driver load (e.g. amp is 100W, drivers are rated at 400W)
Situation B: Amp power is over-matched compared to driver load (e.g. amp is 300W, drivers are rated at 700W)

For a given amount of mismatch (situation A has that mismatch at 300W, situation B at 400W) in either direction, at what point do you have complete and total non-useability? Like, in situation A, at what driver power rating will I never, ever get sound from that 100W amp. What driver power rating would give me sound when the amp volume knob is between 5-10. Or, in situation B, for the same 300W head, at what driver power rating would I be unable to even take the volume above 2 without shredding them. Above 5 without distortion.

Hopefully that clarifies.
 
So I was trying to figure out "Where am I going wrong?

Mostly by not appreciating two things.

The first is that bass cabinet design is bloody complicated, and in order to provide useful answers the experts here need to know an awful lot more background than you'd think
And
Secondly an awful lot of people who didn't realise their simple question was complicated have been here before you, and what you get asked and told reflects them as well as you. You may not need educating about the strange myths that are out there, but we don't know that.
 
First, apologies. The initial responses were along the lines of "you're-doomed-to-failure" and "throw money at it" and the like. Bad timing for my mood, especially since previous to the post, I had spent, like, 3 weeks on an unrelated event where a gap in my knowledge was unerringly perceived as a opportunity for the other person to swing their dick at my face and try and sell me something rather than actually assist. But most y'all are trying to help, so if you're still willing, lets chat.

The cab dimensions I gave are interior measurements, no need (I think) to compensate for any wall thicknesses. I looked online for a modeler to plug my stats into, and was unable to find anything except for car speakers. The non-car-speaker calculators did not ask me for cab dimensions, just what volume I wanted at how many feet away, mostly. If someone could provide a link to a free calculator of the sort that considers the requested dimensions, thank you in advance.

I can spend a few bucks on this, but I am not mister moneybags. Like most musicians, I want the most bang for my buck. I would like to keep it under $300.

It is not necessarily what I am going for as a goal, but the most likely situation that I will apply the final solution to if feasible (and, in fact, the 'hmmmmmmm…..?' moment I had that started this thread) is using the Mark II as the gig amp, and using the K5 for home/practice and the occasional small-rooms. I have other rigs that are my go-to for certain venues and/or depending on which bass I am playing, so I don't have an interest in trying to 'sound like' something specific other than 'not-like-poopie.' Also figuring prominently, this is for sure an experiment in art. I don't need to be hyper-loud, needing only to be able to hear myself over the drummer. My impression is that when I need concert loud (should I ever actually go that route on this hypothetical rig), I am being mic'd up anyway through hopefully good quality full-range PA that can simply reproduces my sound without alteration except volume. It is also my impression this is common knowledge, so if you disagree, I would like to know exactly why you disagree (not so I can argue, but to get the perspective).

I am playing rock'n'roll punk style. Except for an occasional slow song, I am playing full throttle and run a robust (as opposed to mega-) pedalboard. To clarify, this to me is not about volume, its about clarity between those rapid fire triplets and 8th and 16th notes, I like fast decay to prevent that from turning into mud as there are stompboxes for when I need mud, but almost nothing that I know of or used except maybe compressors that effectively gleans precision from slop.

The Kustom rig is teal sparkle, which I am willing to believe most of you have at least seen. Its beautiful. For stage presence in smaller venues, I would like to use the Kustom amp.

However, and this is, as I see it, one of my 2 hard spots that I don't know if there is something I can do or if I am in an you-can't-get-there-from-here scenario and I need to just suck it up. And my hope here, lest there be doubt, is to find the can-do attitude rather than the doomed-to-fail attitude. Especially since, as this is so experimental, that I can't really truely fail except by doing nothing. Moving on, that Mark II has 2 knobs, VLE (vintage loudspeaker emulator) and VPF (variable pre-shape filter), which I affectionately refer to as 'The magic knobs of life.' They work best at higher gain, when I jack it into my higher-power cabs, its like miniature elven craftsmen have descended into my ear canals and are magically re-shaping my eardrums to accommodate that slice of audio heaven I am creating string-side. But for a venue large enough to accommodate this, nobody is even going to see my rig so I don't care about stage presence so much. Hard spot #1 is I love the VLE and VPF knobs way too much, but the teal sparkle gets the babes (so to speak, its just sexy as shag, and it initiates TONS of conversation with complete strangers, which is, like, reason #2 I am even a musician).

Hard spot #2, and to me a much bigger bump, is that the Kustom amp wants 8 ohms of impedance. On a technical level, this is arguable, with a lot of folks saying they can take 4 ohm => short story, I am 10000000% convinced they want 8 ohm. My 3 biggest reasons are, 1) Kustom schematics says so if you are willing to do the math, 2) I have actually broke open a virgin cab of this model and discovered 2 JBL goldbacks that were 16 ohms each and wired in parallel. And 3) even more compelling, the current speakers, which are presenting 4 ohm to the Kustom head, fart. Using other amps and cabs for reference, I have isolated the farting to impedance mismatch as near as I can tell. Admittedly, there must be a complicating issue with the head, I don't think it is handling power transients on the back end as it should, but definitely can blame speaker fart in this case on the impedance mismatch. What I take away from this is that if I want to use the Kustom head *AT ALL* then I need to have 2x 16 ohm in parallel or 2x 4 ohm in series. I am not liking the series idea, but would adopt it if there was a solution here and series was the only way to make it happen. But, who makes a stock 16 ohm 15" woofer, much less a 16 ohm 15" woofer in an appropriate power level with an SPL of at least 90-95 that doesn't cost a billion dollars? The answer is, nobody I have been able to find. This singular fact is the A-#1 reason (well, okay, A-#2) I am even considering an exotic rig => 'correct' speaker selection is almost non-existent.

And although I am slightly dubious about the idea, a friend suggested that as long as the power ratings of the 2 drivers matched, and the amp impedance matching was accounted for, I could operate - for example - 2 100W speakers in the same cab, one being a straight very-low-end woofer and another woofer that was more accommodating to midrange. But that friend says a lot of things. I know this is how normal PA-type speakers are cabbed, but kind of curious if anyone has tried something like this and liked the results, or otherwise discovered anything interesting.
 
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First, apologies. The initial responses were along the lines of "you're-doomed-to-failure" and "throw money at it" and the like. Bad timing for my mood, especially since previous to the post, I had spent, like, 3 weeks on an unrelated event where a gap in my knowledge was unerringly perceived as a opportunity for the other person to swing their dick at my face and try and sell me something rather than actually assist. But most y'all are trying to help, so if you're still willing, lets chat.

The cab dimensions I gave are interior measurements, no need (I think) to compensate for any wall thicknesses. I looked online for a modeler to plug my stats into, and was unable to find anything except for car speakers. The non-car-speaker calculators did not ask me for cab dimensions, just what volume I wanted at how many feet away, mostly. If someone could provide a link to a free calculator of the sort that considers the requested dimensions, thank you in advance.

I can spend a few bucks on this, but I am not mister moneybags. Like most musicians, I want the most bang for my buck. I would like to keep it under $300.

It is not necessarily what I am going for as a goal, but the most likely situation that I will apply the final solution to if feasible (and, in fact, the 'hmmmmmmm…..?' moment I had that started this thread) is using the Mark II as the gig amp, and using the K5 for home/practice and the occasional small-rooms. I have other rigs that are my go-to for certain venues and/or depending on which bass I am playing, so I don't have an interest in trying to 'sound like' something specific other than 'not-like-poopie.' Also figuring prominently, this is for sure an experiment in art. I don't need to be hyper-loud, needing only to be able to hear myself over the drummer. My impression is that when I need concert loud (should I ever actually go that route on this hypothetical rig), I am being mic'd up anyway through hopefully good quality full-range PA that can simply reproduces my sound without alteration except volume. It is also my impression this is common knowledge, so if you disagree, I would like to know exactly why you disagree (not so I can argue, but to get the perspective).

I am playing rock'n'roll punk style. Except for an occasional slow song, I am playing full throttle and run a robust (as opposed to mega-) pedalboard. To clarify, this to me is not about volume, its about clarity between those rapid fire triplets and 8th and 16th notes, I like fast decay to prevent that from turning into mud as there are stompboxes for when I need mud, but almost nothing that I know of or used except maybe compressors that effectively gleans precision from slop.

The Kustom rig is teal sparkle, which I am willing to believe most of you have at least seen. Its beautiful. For stage presence in smaller venues, I would like to use the Kustom amp.

However, and this is, as I see it, one of my 2 hard spots that I don't know if there is something I can do or if I am in an you-can't-get-there-from-here scenario and I need to just suck it up. And my hope here, lest there be doubt, is to find the can-do attitude rather than the doomed-to-fail attitude. Especially since, as this is so experimental, that I can't really truely fail except by doing nothing. Moving on, that Mark II has 2 knobs, VLE (vintage loudspeaker emulator) and VPF (variable pre-shape filter), which I affectionately refer to as 'The magic knobs of life.' They work best at higher gain, when I jack it into my higher-power cabs, its like miniature elven craftsmen have descended into my ear canals and are magically re-shaping my eardrums to accommodate that slice of audio heaven I am creating string-side. But for a venue large enough to accommodate this, nobody is even going to see my rig so I don't care about stage presence so much. Hard spot #1 is I love the VLE and VPF knobs way too much, but the teal sparkle gets the babes (so to speak, its just sexy as shag, and it initiates TONS of conversation with complete strangers, which is, like, reason #2 I am even a musician).

Hard spot #2, and to me a much bigger bump, is that the Kustom amp wants 8 ohms of impedance. On a technical level, this is arguable, with a lot of folks saying they can take 4 ohm => short story, I am 10000000% convinced they want 8 ohm. My 3 biggest reasons are, 1) Kustom schematics says so if you are willing to do the math, 2) I have actually broke open a virgin cab of this model and discovered 2 JBL goldbacks that were 16 ohms each and wired in parallel. And 3) even more compelling, the current speakers, which are presenting 4 ohm to the Kustom head, fart. Using other amps and cabs for reference, I have isolated the farting to impedance mismatch as near as I can tell. Admittedly, there must be a complicating issue with the head, I don't think it is handling power transients on the back end as it should, but definitely can blame speaker fart in this case on the impedance mismatch. What I take away from this is that if I want to use the Kustom head *AT ALL* then I need to have 2x 16 ohm in parallel or 2x 4 ohm in series. I am not liking the series idea, but would adopt it if there was a solution here and series was the only way to make it happen. But, who makes a stock 16 ohm 15" woofer, much less a 16 ohm 15" woofer in an appropriate power level with an SPL of at least 90-95 that doesn't cost a billion dollars? The answer is, nobody I have been able to find. This singular fact is the A-#1 reason (well, okay, A-#2) I am even considering an exotic rig => 'correct' speaker selection is almost non-existent.

And although I am slightly dubious about the idea, a friend suggested that as long as the power ratings of the 2 drivers matched, and the amp impedance matching was accounted for, I could operate - for example - 2 100W speakers in the same cab, one being a straight very-low-end woofer and another woofer that was more accommodating to midrange. But that friend says a lot of things. I know this is how normal PA-type speakers are cabbed, but kind of curious if anyone has tried something like this and liked the results, or otherwise discovered anything interesting.


Everything I have found on the Kustom 200 amps says they rated for 8 and 4 ohm operation. There are even a few claims they are supposed to work at 2.67, but the gurus say this is a bad idea because the heat sinking on the amps is not great...I wouldn't do it. The cab you have probably came with a pair of 16 ohm drivers because the idea is to be able to run two 8 ohm cabs. The people over at the Vintage Kustom website say the amp will make about 100W into 4 ohms and 50W into 8 ohms. The site is a real pain to navigate but here it is Welcome to VintageKustom.Com! I found the information above on the Webboard link under replacement parts. By all means set the cab up for whatever impedance you think is best though.

Using mismatched speakers is fairly common for guitar cabs. IMHO it's a really poor idea for a bass cab if the speakers share the same chamber. The speakers rely on back pressure to control their excursion, so they need to be balanced...otherwise the stronger driver will dominate the weaker driver. IMHO it's also not a great idea if the speakers are in separate chambers. If the two drivers are tuned significantly different, the variances in phase and group delay will degrade performance in the low end.

I found several recommendations for the Deltas on the Vintage Kustom website. I didn't find anybody on that site that mentioned doing any modeling, but comments were favorable. Since the amp is so low powered you will probably be okay pushing a pair of Deltas with it, but I wouldn't expect huge lows. Also, I think your asking for trouble if you goose the Deltas with your MarkBass in a poorly tuned, undersized ported cab.

If you Google "free speaker design software" you should get some hits.

That's about as much help as I can give. Good luck!
 
I use this site sometimes: Invalid Link Removed

Agree with @Wasnex about different drivers in the same box. It depends on your tonal goals, but most of us are looking for solid low end, and mixing drivers isn’t the best way to get that. “Normal PA speakers” don’t do this either, despite what your friend tells you. He might be thinking of different drivers in different chambers of a box, but those also employ crossovers to split the frequency bands.

On the other hand, it doesn’t cost anything to try it and see what happens! (Except money. And time.)
 
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I use this site sometimes: Invalid Link Removed

Agree with @Wasnex about different drivers in the same box. It depends on your tonal goals, but most of us are looking for solid low end, and mixing drivers isn’t the best way to get that. “Normal PA speakers” don’t do this either, despite what your friend tells you. He might be thinking of different drivers in different chambers of a box, but those also employ crossovers to split the frequency bands.

On the other hand, it doesn’t cost anything to try it and see what happens! (Except money. And time.)


Cool speaker design calculator, but I don't believe it will help the OP as it appears to only calculate an optimum box from driver T/S parameters. He needs an app where he can input driver parameters and also the existing cabs dimensions.
 
Cool speaker design calculator, but I don't believe it will help the OP as it appears to only calculate an optimum box from driver T/S parameters. He needs an app where he can input driver parameters and also the existing cabs dimensions.

It does that too. After calculating the optimum flat response box size, you can change the box volume.
 
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It does that too. After calculating the optimum flat response box size, you can change the box volume.


Okay I don't know if I did any of this right, but I tried to model the Delta 15A. I wound up with 107 liters total for the box volume (3.7ft^3). I divided that by two since the space is shared by two drivers and inputted 3.62L for the driver's volume. I set the port diameter to 8.89cm (3.5") and then selected calculate dual port. I got F3 at about 90hz with a fairly strong peak at 122hz. The port length defaults to 7.04 inches and I don't see a way to input the actual value 4 3/8". The actual tuning will higher because the ports are too short.

I am sure that someone who actually knows what they are doing could do a far better job with one of the free modelers.
 
As the person who responded to your post first, I gave you the best advice that I could. If the reply was not what you wanted to hear then such is life. You have been advised similarly by folk who design amplification equipment for a living but you have dismissed all of us. That’s sad that ‘cos you could get a good education from this site just by listening and taking on board that new information. Surely after all the work/money invested in your Kustom box you want it to perform well and not just tear itself to pieces. If not just stick a couple of Auto Subwoofer drivers in there and call it a day.
 
There was Virtual PC but this only worked on older Macs such as my wife’s original flat Panel iMac. My wife uses it to play ‘Spider.’ :) I am not aware of a newer, updated version for a modern day Mac.
I'm sorry to hear that, I'm not fond of the Apple structure. I get and respect that some people do, but I try to proselytize Linux when I can simply because of all the free open source stuff you can find and once you get over the differences it can be as simple as you like. But hey, differences exist and make things interesting :)

That said, I know you can do a lot of powerful math tricks using spreadsheet software, somebody may have made one with speaker modeling calculations someplace. That could be a direction to look into.
 
As far as OP is concerned, though, honestly I can't claim expertise, kinda best to listen to those who know better. That being said, with low power and not needing a lot of low end extension I don't think it's hurting much to use a pair of Delta's in a smallish cab with a low power amp, think easily under 100 Watts. Even with those goals though, the Delta's are still about a hundred bucks CAD if I recall, not exactly cheap, still better to model it and figure out exactly what you'd get - it's really not as complex as some make it out to be.

Granted, I'd really just use it as a garage or barn amp with tons of mojo and lots of mids and highs on tap, doing Motown and funk and amplified acoustic stuff, and not expect it to keep up with a bunch of metalheads with stacks doing full smiley EQ.
 
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Okay I don't know if I did any of this right, but I tried to model the Delta 15A. I wound up with 107 liters total for the box volume (3.7ft^3). I divided that by two since the space is shared by two drivers and inputted 3.62L for the driver's volume. I set the port diameter to 8.89cm (3.5") and then selected calculate dual port. I got F3 at about 90hz with a fairly strong peak at 122hz. The port length defaults to 7.04 inches and I don't see a way to input the actual value 4 3/8". The actual tuning will higher because the ports are too short.

I am sure that someone who actually knows what they are doing could do a far better job with one of the free modelers.
Without even doing any modeling I can say you're probably pretty close. F3 of 90Hz is pretty worthless by today's standards, it was pretty common 40 years ago. With a cab of that size you could get a fairly decent result with a higher priced lower Q driver, and longer ports. A pair of Delta 15s isn't going to do the job. They're better in a sealed cab. I doubt any experienced speaker designer would consider them in a ported cab. There's way more to choosing drivers than inches and watts. A Qes of 0.53 pretty much screams 'sealed', but the majority of potential driver swappers don't know Qes from GPS.
 
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