Speakers...Why Does The Myth that Size Matters, Still Exist?

[agedhorse]

I have two instances where speaker size seems to matter. Anecdotal yes, but here they are. First, understand that my pair of 4x10s (Peavey, Ashdown, both with horn) are great for electric bass. They handle my Tobias 6 string just fine. Ok, onward.

1. I play upright bass. I have a Crate BX100 combo amp with a 15” speaker that sounds far better with the mic’ed upright than does my bass stack. I’ve tried using a 4x10 extension cabinet instead of the 15” for this, and it does not sound as good. That amp with that 15” sounds like the bass, only louder.

2. I run a Hammond organ emulation app into a rotary horn (MotionSound Pro3T), which has left and right low rotor simulation outputs. It sounded good thru those 4x10s, but I also own an actual Hammond A100 and Leslie… and something was missing from the sound of the Pro3T low rotor outputs. The Leslie uses a 15” for its low rotor. So I took the Peavey out of the emulation setup, and added a GK Backline 1x15. It fleshed out the low end, and now my Hammond emulation sounds right.

From my standpoint, the 15” clearly moves the air differently. My hypotheses: for the Hammond, nothing emulates a 15” speaker better than a 15” speaker! For the upright, its own sounding surface is very large - to best reproduce that, a large diameter speaker is the best option.

At least between those two specific cabinets maybe.

 

[InkCow]

I have two instances where speaker size seems to matter. Anecdotal yes, but here they are. First, understand that my pair of 4x10s (Peavey, Ashdown, both with horn) are great for electric bass. They handle my Tobias 6 string just fine. Ok, onward.

1. I play upright bass. I have a Crate BX100 combo amp with a 15” speaker that sounds far better with the mic’ed upright than does my bass stack. I’ve tried using a 4x10 extension cabinet instead of the 15” for this, and it does not sound as good. That amp with that 15” sounds like the bass, only louder.

2. I run a Hammond organ emulation app into a rotary horn (MotionSound Pro3T), which has left and right low rotor simulation outputs. It sounded good thru those 4x10s, but I also own an actual Hammond A100 and Leslie… and something was missing from the sound of the Pro3T low rotor outputs. The Leslie uses a 15” for its low rotor. So I took the Peavey out of the emulation setup, and added a GK Backline 1x15. It fleshed out the low end, and now my Hammond emulation sounds right.

From my standpoint, the 15” clearly moves the air differently. My hypotheses: for the Hammond, nothing emulates a 15” speaker better than a 15” speaker! For the upright, its own sounding surface is very large - to best reproduce that, a large diameter speaker is the best option.

I can’t help but think that there are a lot of variables that you are ignoring to reach your conclusion, but, I think that the more important takeaway was that you found something that works for you. Ultimately, everything else here is pedantry.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

When it's made obvious enough that for example one 1" and one 30" (each in an optimized cab) are not the same,
these threads always turn toward headphones (to help the small driver) and arrays of small drivers.

If there is no difference, why do you need multiple 1"s?

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Multiple 3"s can equal (or better) one 15".
But if one 3" is equal to one 15", why do you need multiples?
They aren't equal.

 

[96tbird]

This immediately made me think of Marty Deberghi asking why not just make 10 louder.

 

[Al Kraft]

When it's made obvious enough that for example one 1" and one 30" (each in an optimized cab) are not the same,
these threads always turn toward headphones (to help the small driver) and arrays of small drivers.

If there is no difference, why do you need multiple 1"s?

That's a solid, thought provoking question,...and a bit of mic drop moment as well!

 

[Al Kraft]

Physics, the state of the art in transducer capabilities, and cost all need to be considered in the context of specific use cases.

IMO it is unlikely that at any reasonable price point sufficient technology options exist to allow someone to fill a huge venue (indoors or outside) with low bass/subwoofer frequencies using only a 1" driver. It could probably be done with enormous numbers of 1" drivers with novel enclosure designs in some type of array, but why would anyone want to do that if other options for arrays with fewer drivers were available?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I defer to @agedhorse and other knowledgeable people about these matters, but it does seem as if two different things are being smushed together in this discussion: tone and volume (or acoustic output).

When the 10 vs 12 vs 15 vs 8 vs 3 thing comes up on TalkBass, it's almost always (I can't even think of any exceptions off the top of my head) in the context of tone--for example, the idea that there are these baked-in essential tonal qualities, such as bass extension, that are common to basically all cabinets with 15s, of whatever components and design, and that aren't to be found in any cabinets with 10s, of any components or design. I believe this is the idea that the "speaker size doesn't matter" folks are arguing against.

To the best of my knowledge, however, none of them have ever argued that speaker size doesn't matter with relation to the amount of air a speaker can move. That's a different issue that shouldn't be confused with tone. If you have a really good set of headphones, it probably has better tone and more true bass extension than your bass rig does; it just can't go very loud.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Why does the myth that size matters, still exist?

The main reason is because size does matter and the ways in which it matters is not a myth; its acoustical science / physics.

If you are designing a speaker cabinet for a single speaker (1x10 or 1x15), one of the parameters you will be using is the “Equivalent Compliance Volume” designated by “Vas” in the T/S parameters of a speaker. That’s the minimum volume of air required in the speaker cabinet to allow the speaker cone to move freely, measured in typical volume units of cubic feet, cubic meters, or in liters. The larger the speaker diameter, the larger the cabinet required for that speaker to reach its optimum performance without being overly damped by the air in the cabinet. The reason the larger dia. speaker generally needs a larger cabinet is because the larger dia. speaker generally moves more air if driven with the same power as a smaller dia. speaker.

When humans hear the difference in a larger volume of air being vibrated vs a small volume of air being vibrated, they might use the terms of “lower”, “deeper”, or “thicker” for the large volume of air, when the frequency of the vibration is exactly the same as the small volume of air.

We all know the volume of air being vibrated makes a difference. If it’s a large volume of air being vibrated at a high sound pressure, you can feel it.

If the volume of air being vibrated didn’t matter, we would all use speakers the size of our in-ear monitors and carry them in our pockets to the gig.

Back to the 1x10 vs 1x15 cabs. Many like the (usually) higher frequency reach and quick response of the 1x10, but also like the volume of air that can be vibrated by a 1x15. Solution? 2x10, 4x10, 6x10, 8x10.

So, when people start describing how they like a 15” speaker better than a 10” speaker, or visa-versa, they aren’t talking about each speaker hanging from a wire in an anechoic chamber, they’re talking about having heard each speaker size in a cabinet optimized for each speaker, and they are often using terms that describe the frequency of each cabinet when the difference they hear is primarily due to the volume of air being vibrated, not the frequency it’s being vibrated.

 

[HolmeBass]

My ear buds produce excellent bass. But the easy way to produce lots of bass, with lots of volume, is to use a big, efficient, speaker to move lots of air, manufactured by a by a company with a reputable product designed specifically to accomplish the task.

To use smaller speakers that will suffice in both bass and volume, you have to really get clever with driver, cabinet, and even the electronics. Which can get hard for engineering and manufacturing, custom designs, compatibility, repairability, and even marketing.

But if you are reading lots of posts where people still prefer one size over another, claiming that their favorite speakers are (insert size here), why in the world do you care? If you have no context of the speaker/cab design affecting their choice, nor any ability to actually hear their choices actually perform, how can you possibly contest their preferences? For all you know, that ginormous loudspeaker in their old cabinet may actually be the best performing combination you've ever come across.


I don't know how you can perform a blind test, based on size alone.

A qualitative test would be pretty easy. Select five or so ported 115 bass cabinets and compare how they sound to each other.

I think you will find a lot of variation. So much so that if you are honest with yourself, you would conclude that even that classic alignment doesn’t really have one sound.

 

[HolmeBass]

Imagine a 15" funneled into and sealed into your ear canal. If that's no different from an ear bud you have nothing to worry about.

No one is saying ONE 6” driver in a properly aligned cabinet will match the performance of ONE 15” driver in a properly aligned cabinet.

You are making a straw man argument here.

We are saying when people say “I like 10’s” they are referring to a cabinet with an array of 10” drivers from two to eight. It is this comparison that is being called into question.

 

[KohanMike]

I first started playing bass (uke) in mid 2013 when I was 63 and used a Crate Limo 50w 8" guitar amp (I always have to very portable with battery). It was OK, but when we did an amphitheater gig, it couldn't cut it. I then bought a Phil Jones Bass Double Four (and laptop battery), but outdoors it too came up short. Here on Talk Bass, I learned that to push more air, the amp needs a big speaker, so I bought a Carvin MB15 200w with 15" neo speaker (plus a powerbank). Both amps put out great bass, I don't judge tone since they both sound very good to me.

 

[agedhorse]

Multiple 3"s can equal (or better) one 15".
But if one 3" is equal to one 15", why do you need multiples?
They aren't equal.

Nobody who knows what they are talking about is saying that.

 

[agedhorse]

I defer to @agedhorse and other knowledgeable people about these matters, but it does seem as if two different things are being smushed together in this discussion: tone and volume (or acoustic output).

When the 10 vs 12 vs 15 vs 8 vs 3 thing comes up on TalkBass, it's almost always (I can't even think of any exceptions off the top of my head) in the context of tone--for example, the idea that there are these baked-in essential tonal qualities, such as bass extension, that are common to basically all cabinets with 15s, of whatever components and design, and that aren't to be found in any cabinets with 10s, of any components or design. I believe this is the idea that the "speaker size doesn't matter" folks are arguing against.

To the best of my knowledge, however, none of them have ever argued that speaker size doesn't matter with relation to the amount of air a speaker can move. That's a different issue that shouldn't be confused with tone. If you have a really good set of headphones, it probably has better tone and more true bass extension than your bass rig does; it just can't go very loud.

Correct.

 

[agedhorse]

The main reason is because size does matter and the ways in which it matters is not a myth; its acoustical science / physics.

If you are designing a speaker cabinet for a single speaker (1x10 or 1x15), one of the parameters you will be using is the “Equivalent Compliance Volume” designated by “Vas” in the T/S parameters of a speaker. That’s the minimum volume of air required in the speaker cabinet to allow the speaker cone to move freely, measured in typical volume units of cubic feet, cubic meters, or in liters. The larger the speaker diameter, the larger the cabinet required for that speaker to reach its optimum performance without being overly damped by the air in the cabinet. The reason the larger dia. speaker generally needs a larger cabinet is because the larger dia. speaker generally moves more air if driven with the same power as a smaller dia. speaker.

When humans hear the difference in a larger volume of air being vibrated vs a small volume of air being vibrated, they might use the terms of “lower”, “deeper”, or “thicker” for the large volume of air, when the frequency of the vibration is exactly the same as the small volume of air.

We all know the volume of air being vibrated makes a difference. If it’s a large volume of air being vibrated at a high sound pressure, you can feel it.

If the volume of air being vibrated didn’t matter, we would all use speakers the size of our in-ear monitors and carry them in our pockets to the gig.

Back to the 1x10 vs 1x15 cabs. Many like the (usually) higher frequency reach and quick response of the 1x10, but also like the volume of air that can be vibrated by a 1x15. Solution? 2x10, 4x10, 6x10, 8x10.

So, when people start describing how they like a 15” speaker better than a 10” speaker, or visa-versa, they aren’t talking about each speaker hanging from a wire in an anechoic chamber, they’re talking about having heard each speaker size in a cabinet optimized for each speaker, and they are often using terms that describe the frequency of each cabinet when the difference they hear is primarily due to the volume of air being vibrated, not the frequency it’s being vibrated.

When using Vas as an argument, you have to consider total Vas and total Vb whenever considering multiple driver cabinets. It’s not just diaphragm area but also total motor force.

I think much of the mythology is about “tone” rather than absolute volume.

 

[agedhorse]

I first started playing bass (uke) in mid 2013 when I was 63 and used a Crate Limo 50w 8" guitar amp (I always have to very portable with battery). It was OK, but when we did an amphitheater gig, it couldn't cut it. I then bought a Phil Jones Bass Double Four (and laptop battery), but outdoors it too came up short. Here on Talk Bass, I learned that to push more air, the amp needs a big speaker, so I bought a Carvin MB15 200w with 15" neo speaker (plus a powerbank). Both amps put out great bass, I don't judge tone since they both sound very good to me.

If you had doubled up on the PJB speakers, you may have come to a different conclusion.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Nobody who knows what they are talking about is saying that.

It usually happens like this:
In our usual context of driver(s) in a cab (unless specified otherwise),
someone will ask, for example, "should I get a 10" or a 15"?".
Then someone will say, "well, you'll probably get more lows from a 15"".
And then someone will say "no, driver size makes no difference".

That *is* what they're saying.

 

[agedhorse]

It usually happens like this:
In our usual context of driver(s) in a cab (unless specified otherwise),
someone will ask, for example, "should I get a 10" or a 15"?".
Then someone will say, "well, you'll probably get more lows from a 15"".
And then someone will say "no, driver size makes no difference".

That *is* what they're saying.

Like I said earlier, the comments are generally about tone not volume (as your post itself also suggests).

Please reread these posts for better comprehension, your arguments do not support what’s being discussed and appear to be for argumentative purposes only.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I mean, another angle on that would be the myriad of bass rigs in the 80s and 90s, (and sometimes still in use today) that have a 1x15" below a 4x10" cabinet.

"The 15 brings the lows and the 10s bring the punch"

Yet that is a fallacy. The 4x10 is no doubt putting out more low-end than the 15.

Billy Sheehan for example, used to use that setup, 15s on the bottom 410s on the top. Then he realized the 410s had more bass and the 15s had more mid-range content so he switched them. Now he uses all 15s the last time I m looked.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

The original poster said it himself:

One of the most popular myths debunked is that bigger speakers produce more low end than smaller speakers

That *is* what he said.
@M-Mittlesteadt, if that's a myth then I could save a lot of weight and money by running a 1x3". Is that right?