Speed tips?

[todd0864]

So I'm working on Sir Duke, and that scale section where the bass and horns are flying up and down the neck is giving me trouble at speed. I have a program that slows down mp3's and I can nail it at just below 80% speed. But at full speed I just can't keep up. I got the feel of it and can play it alone at a slow speed. Not sure if it's my fretting hand or plucking hand that is the weak spot or both together. Anyway, I use a metronome and run through chromatic's and different fingerings to warm up. For anyone that can play this at full speed, are there some exercises I should focus on to build that up or just keep doing what I'm doing and I'll get there eventually. Maybe there is something you came across that kind of turned a light bulb on in your head? I know just like anything you can hit a wall and it can be really hard to break through it sometime. Also, I use alternate plucking ascending and alternate/rake descending.
Thanks.

 

[BazzTard]

not specific to this bassline, but I find when I hit a plateau like that, usually on Rush songs, I find that if I take a break from that song for a few days, muscle memory kicks in and I get better at it. Too long a break and I have to start again though hehe

 

[Lobster11]

Sorry I'm late....

I recently watched a Scott Devine video lesson in which he explained his method for mastering a tricky/fast line or lick. The usual method that most of us have learned is to practice the whole lick/line at however slow a tempo is necessary for you to be able to play it accurately, then turn up the metronome a few clicks and practice it as this slightly faster tempo until you've mastered that, and so forth -- gradually increasing the speed until you eventually reach the target tempo. What Scott does instead is start out (after learning the fingering, of course) by trying to play just the first two or three notes of the riff/line at (or near) the target tempo. Practice just those two or three notes until you can play them accurately at tempo, and then add one more note: i.e., now just play the first three (or four) notes of the riff at tempo. Once you can play that cleanly at speed, add the next note, etc. If you can already play the whole line at 80% of the target tempo, I'll bet this method will get you that other 20% pretty quickly.

 

[bfields]

Yep, I was just going to recommend something like that. I've run into the problem on piano, not so much bass yet. Once you can nail something at a lower tempo, you know the notes, and I don't think it's necessarily worth spending a lot of time gradually ratcheting up, because the technique required to play it at a higher tempo may turn out to be just fundamentally different in some way--e.g. maybe a different left-hand fingering or different kind of pluck works better at the higher speed, or maybe you want to switch to hammering-on some notes. So find other ways to break it down into simpler tasks while still keeping the target tempo. Doing just very small overlapping pieces of it is good. On piano you'd practice hands separately, I don't know if that's as useful on bass.

 

[Lobster11]

Yep, I was just going to recommend something like that. I've run into the problem on piano, not so much bass yet. Once you can nail something at a lower tempo, you know the notes, and I don't think it's necessarily worth spending a lot of time gradually ratcheting up, because the technique required to play it at a higher tempo may turn out to be just fundamentally different in some way--e.g. maybe a different left-hand fingering or different kind of pluck works better at the higher speed, or maybe you want to switch to hammering-on some notes. So find other ways to break it down into simpler tasks while still keeping the target tempo. Doing just very small overlapping pieces of it is good. On piano you'd practice hands separately, I don't know if that's as useful on bass.

Great post! You've nicely explained, in a way I hadn't thought of, why Scott's recommended method works better than the usual gradual-increasing-the-tempo method. It occurs to me, for example, that something you could play with rest strokes at slower tempos might require free strokes at higher tempos. If you just gradually increase the speed of the whole riff, you might eventually reach a tempo that, no matter how much you practice, you just can't get -- and you'd never know why.

I also agree that the key to the strategy, in general, is breaking down the riff/line into smaller chunks. It doesn't necessarily have to be the first three notes, then the first four notes, etc.: You could "chunk it" in other ways depending on the piece. For example, the line that Scott uses for illustration involves a position shift at one point in the riff, and I can see practicing a segment that includes just the first few notes before and after the shift to work on that particularly difficult part of the passage.

 

[winegamd]

I would also suggest that first you learn it slow, I mean REAL slow (like 60bpm quarter notes), and really focus on relaxing your right and left hands. Pay attention to how far you lift you fingers really focusing on deliberate movement and no wasted motion. Make sure you are not plucking too hard. After a while of doing this, you muscle memory will have it learned, and when you start to increase speed the actions will carry over. Then when it starts to get hard again, focus on the same things again using Scott's method mentioned above.

 

[Lobster11]

I would also suggest that first you learn it slow, I mean REAL slow (like 60bpm quarter notes), and really focus on relaxing your right and left hands. Pay attention to how far you lift you fingers really focusing on deliberate movement and no wasted motion. Make sure you are not plucking too hard. After a while of doing this, you muscle memory will have it learned, and when you start to increase speed the actions will carry over. Then when it starts to get hard again, focus on the same things again using Scott's method mentioned above.

Right. Another thing to focus on at slow speed is right-hand fingering. Specifically, OP mentioned that he uses both alternation and raking when descending, so he'll want to decide when he wants to do which throughout the passage, and then be consistent about doing it the same way each time. (Unfortunately, I have far more personal experience with this particular problem than I'd like to admit!)

 

[todd0864]

I've been making mini exercises with the different parts. Slow and then working my way up. I generally try to figure out the best plucking method for me and apply that at the slower speed with hammer-ons and pull-offs. The raking was messing up my timing a bit but it's getting better with the help of some metronome work. It really is amazing what a metronome can do for ones playing. Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[Bondobass]

I'm a follower of teachings by Jamie Andreas, and to quote her…"The fingers are infinitely trainable". I completely agree with this statement, if correct practice is done literally anything is possible, at least anything as far as what has been recorded by someone playing what we want to play on the same instrument as us.

Simply put, if you hit an obstacle then, you need to find what that obstacle is and figure out how to remove it from your practice (things like muscle tension or a finger being out of position)

I strongly suggest:

guitarprinciples.com

 

[bassrich]

You would have to burn muscle memory part by part. Wait a while and perform piece work on missed parts again rinse repeat

 

[Colbert Vape]

 

[todd0864]

Naw, it's not the action. I can play it just fine with a pick. I just need to keep working on my plucking to get that up to speed.

 

[JollySpudd]

Naw, it's not the action. I can play it just fine with a pick. I just need to keep working on my plucking to get that up to speed.

I agree that the up-the-speed/add-a-note-at-a-time is a really good tactic. It can also help you see where a fingering or bumpy approach to a particular note transition is that trying to play straight through might be glossing over. Hone in on that weakness until smooth (if there is a spot like that).

This said, in music, I see it like a survivalist situation. When you're out there gigging, in the trenches, you don't always have time to develop the technique before it's time to hit it for the show - in those cases, other than go in struggling or unsure - which can lead to a flub fest - I never have any problem doing whatever it necessary to get the job done - that means (to me) if you have to grab a pick for that section - no shame in that, if it serves the music and the band to the best effect. Yet, if that is the case, is still doesn't stop you from your continued efforts to conquer it with your digits - toward the next show.

Do whatever it takes to get the job done.

 

[pravus]

because the technique required to play it at a higher tempo may turn out to be just fundamentally different in some way

I've run into this numerous times actually. To counter this what I do is re-learn at a slow pace the new fingering/positioning just as I did when I started. While doing this I particularly focus on finger position, hand position, thumb pressure, etc. so that all of that is embedded in the muscle memory. Since most of the pattern is already there these minor adjustments don't take too long to learn. Then when I speed up again it's easier and more correct.

 

[thewildest]

Pretty good advice all around. I think it was Charlie Parker that say "if you want to play fast, practice slow, and if you want to play really fast, you must practice really slow". This goes with something I heard Alain Caron said once, that you "think" the notes before you play them, pretty fast, but we all do. Once you play slow, you make your brain "understand" the structure instead of depending on a muscle reflex.

I often stop the repeatitive exercises and just imagine or visualize what the passage I have to play, and once I visualize it most times I can just go an play it. In other words, don't "send your fingers on their own" but rather make sure you are concious about each step. That will give robustness to what you learn and make it permanent.

I hope it helps.

 

[Geddy_2112]

I had to learn this song for the school band in 3 days. I actually just played it half speed once or twice to learn the notes/rhythm. And increased the speed each run. It was easier for me since I play Rush/Primus stuff. But yeah, just take it slow and take a little break from it once and a while. You should be able to get it in no time.

 

[Chinchano]

Pretty good advice all around. I think it was Charlie Parker that say "if you want to play fast, practice slow, and if you want to play really fast, you must practice really slow". This goes with something I heard Alain Caron said once, that you "think" the notes before you play them, pretty fast, but we all do. Once you play slow, you make your brain "understand" the structure instead of depending on a muscle reflex.

I often stop the repeatitive exercises and just imagine or visualize what the passage I have to play, and once I visualize it most times I can just go an play it. In other words, don't "send your fingers on their own" but rather make sure you are concious about each step. That will give robustness to what you learn and make it permanent.

I hope it helps.

I've found that using Scott's method and doing what you're saying here helps a lot. Almost kind of like looking a note or two ahead of where I'm at that given moment during the run.

 

[TedH]

Sorry I'm late....

I recently watched a Scott Devine video lesson in which he explained his method for mastering a tricky/fast line or lick. The usual method that most of us have learned is to practice the whole lick/line at however slow a tempo is necessary for you to be able to play it accurately, then turn up the metronome a few clicks and practice it as this slightly faster tempo until you've mastered that, and so forth -- gradually increasing the speed until you eventually reach the target tempo. What Scott does instead is start out (after learning the fingering, of course) by trying to play just the first two or three notes of the riff/line at (or near) the target tempo. Practice just those two or three notes until you can play them accurately at tempo, and then add one more note: i.e., now just play the first three (or four) notes of the riff at tempo. Once you can play that cleanly at speed, add the next note, etc. If you can already play the whole line at 80% of the target tempo, I'll bet this method will get you that other 20% pretty quickly.

This. If you want to play fast, you need to play slow as it's how you get muscle memory down. Break it all down into pieces, then link together and start taking the tempo up. ALWAYS use a metronome for this. Danny Morris and Anthony Vitti at Berklee are big proponents of this method because it just simply works. It may take some time, but you will get there.

Sir Duke is awesome. We had to do it for R&B class, and I could only get it at a slower tempo within a week. Real tempo was not happening immediately, but I could already feel that with what I had done, I could get there in a month or so. Stick to it, but be disciplined.

 

[Pelao]

If you aren't sure if it's the fretting or plucking hand, I would take the time to figure it out. Generally it's a bigger underlying technique issue that'll keep poppi up on different songs.

 

[todd0864]

It's the plucking hand. I can fret it just fine when playing with a pick. I've taken a break from this song for a while now and focusing on other things but I'll come back to it. Thanks for all the advice.