Double Bass Spiccato at the frog

[basscleff94010]

I am working on Edward Elgar's "Enigma Variations". I am using the articulations in the NY Philhharmic archives, a version which is supposedly marked by Leonard Bernstein. At rehearsal number 50, there is marking, in red, "spiccato at frog".
I learned to play spiccato, a bit poorly, I admit, by playing near the bow's balance point. My attempts to play spiccato at the frog sound very bad. None of my bows bounce at that position and all I hear is scratches.
I apologize if this topic is already covered. My searches of this site show many discussions of spiccato but none are played at the frog. If Mr. Bernstein marked that, there must be an important reason.
Any advice on how to play that?

 

[Brilee]

The part of the bow where spiccato happens is largely governed by the speed of the notes. You have some wiggle room with distance to bridge and weight but it's a little weird for someone to write in where in the bow to do it for players at the NYP level.

 

[Anne Millington]

I am thinking he wants strongly emphasized separate bows, off the string, at a fortissimo dynamic, crescendoing to who knows what dynamic. Spiccato at the frog would be what you might go to for that effect.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I think what is meant by ‘at the frog’ is actually the balance point you are used to.

At first I thought the note probably originated by a member of the bass section but I see Bernstein himself marked the score, from a 1982 performance. Perhaps an advanced pro bassist or cellist may spiccato further up the bow so Bernstein was being specific (?)
The cello part is also marked spiccato at frog, in red.

 

[bassically_eli]

Doesn't the balance point change depending on French vs German bow? I've only ever played French, but the German grip being behind the frog seems like it would shift the balance point back (towards the frog) a bit.

 

[neilG]

That's just a conductor who doesn't play the instrument making an assumption on how it's played. Even if it's Bernstein. I've played this piece a zillion times. Why spicatto is specified is beyond me.

 

[Brilee]

That's just a conductor who doesn't play the instrument making an assumption on how it's played. Even if it's Bernstein.

Agree 100%. Also Bernstein would have liked the theatrical aspect of all the low strings trying to do do that.

 

[elberon]

Well it is marked “ff” so it should be where you can get a lot of weight into the string. The bow won’t bounce much on its own close to the frog. Try using a heavy, short stroke that lifts off the string and that should minimize the scratchy sound.

 

[Anne Millington]

You can do spiccato anywhere you want on the bow, but the frog would give you the greatest power and presence. If you try to use your sweet spot, like for ricochet bowing, I think you would never get the needed force. A short heavy stroke as elberon describes is what you are after, if I interpret this correctly.

 

[David Potts]

The conductor wanted the passage to cut through. The sound would be rough to the players' ears but lose its crudeness with distance. The bounce anywhere between the balance point and the frog works if you use the weight of stick outside the contact point to help dig the hair into the string and gouge the sound out. It is a heavy forced carried bounce, almost crushing, not rising much and using a lot of arm weight with short strokes to get the speed of string crossings up.

I quote Tom Martin yet again - There are times to sound musical and times to be heard. He also said that he used to reserve a couple of inches of unused hair with rosin near the frog for such occasions.

I cannot recall how may NY Phil players were French vs German users when they came here.

 

[Lee Moses]

I just ran across this pertinent quote from Jeff Bradetich in a passage discussing spiccato:

"The heavier the quality of sound, the closer to the frog the stroke occurs. (Strauss) For a lighter sound, the stroke occurs more towards the balance point. (Mozart)" (Double Bass: The Ultimate Challenge, p. 102).

 

[basscleff94010]

Thank you all for your help. I will continue to try for that "heavier sound" for the piece, which seems to make sense. But when I practice spiccato for most works, I will stay at the balance point. (Perfecting that would be enough of a challenge for me, right now. smile)

 

[basscleff94010]

One more note: I was deeply impressed by the fact that I was reading directions given by Leonard Bernstein. As a composer and conductor, I have always admire his musicality. I feel honored to be able to know how he interpreted a piece.

 

[basscleff94010]

Finally, like all important problems in life, I found a youtube explanation. And its from Professor Chandler, of Incredibly Useful Exercises fame.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

Finally, like all important problems in life, I found a youtube explanation. And its from Professor Chandler, of Incredibly Useful Exercises fame.

That's Dennis Whittaker: neither a professor nor a Chandler

 

[basscleff94010]

Ooops, sorry about the name screw-up. However, he is called "Bass Professor at the Univesity of Houston" on the video.

 

[Paps]

Yes, I also recommend Prof Whitaker's wonderful video demonstration where he specifically deals with spiccatto near the frog. I am in no way saying I have mastered it, but he recommends a different bow hold for this.

 

[LouisF]

We are doing the overture to Westside Story in one of the orchestra's I'm in. It's the Maurice Peress arrangement (not the suite). The opening is E, F#, G# etc on the E string, marked staccato (it's the "Jet's are gonna get it tonight" theme").

I think this was Bernstein's idea of "spiccato at the frog". He kinda liked that sound.

 

[the_Ryan]

I am working on Edward Elgar's "Enigma Variations". I am using the articulations in the NY Philhharmic archives, a version which is supposedly marked by Leonard Bernstein. At rehearsal number 50, there is marking, in red, "spiccato at frog".
I learned to play spiccato, a bit poorly, I admit, by playing near the bow's balance point. My attempts to play spiccato at the frog sound very bad. None of my bows bounce at that position and all I hear is scratches.
I apologize if this topic is already covered. My searches of this site show many discussions of spiccato but none are played at the frog. If Mr. Bernstein marked that, there must be an important reason.
Any advice on how to play that?

Spiccato at the frog is very much a thing and is primarily used in FF passages where you want there to be space between the notes: an on-the-string detaché would provide almost no space; an on-the-string or from-the-string staccato uses a lot of moving parts to stop and then restart the bow in the case of the former or lift and reset the bow in the case of the latter, which is very hard to pull off at fast tempos; and a spiccato around the balance point won't be loud enough. Unlike a spiccato in the "flex zone" (balance point + a couple inches on either side of it) of the bow, the bow doesn't want to bounce there as much, so the bounce has to come from the right arm instead. You're still not trying to control the bow and force it to do something it doesn't want to do (because that'll kill the stroke), but you can't rely on the bow to create the bounce itself, if that makes sense. The best way I can describe the motion over text is that you drop the weight of your right arm into the string for the down bow, the bow hits the string and bounces to the right kinda like a windshield wiper, you "catch" the bow on the rebound and "throw" it back onto the string, the bow hits the string and bounces to the left, and the cycle repeats. At tempo these are very small movements, but that's basically what's happening.