Also, if your digital board has compressors in it, it might work for you as well. Hit the guitar channel hard with a clean sounding compressor and maybe it'll even him out some.
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Splitters
- Thread starter KingRazor
- Start date
Agree with MrT. A compressor on the guitar seems like the easiest solution.
I understand how, when dealing with people (the young guitarist in this case), there are all sorts of factors that can interfere with your goal. There would have to be a willingness on his part to hear you out, a willingness for him to change and stick with the change, and there may be tact required to present all of this without offending him because no one wants tension in that situation (and we don't know how easily he might be offended).
It does seem logical to begin with the young guitarist, however, I'm guessing you have already given this some thought or you wouldn't be looking for other solutions.
It does sound like your idea for a splitter would work and the aforementioned compressor is another idea. I think the point that others are trying to make (some less tactfully than others) is that this is a pretty ordinary circumstance with a somewhat out of the ordinary solution being considered. So we realize we're not exactly answering your question (which is what thread responses are supposed to do) and apologies for that. But do try to understand that we're suggesting the more common solutions before going to an uncommon one.
I understand how, when dealing with people (the young guitarist in this case), there are all sorts of factors that can interfere with your goal. There would have to be a willingness on his part to hear you out, a willingness for him to change and stick with the change, and there may be tact required to present all of this without offending him because no one wants tension in that situation (and we don't know how easily he might be offended).
It does seem logical to begin with the young guitarist, however, I'm guessing you have already given this some thought or you wouldn't be looking for other solutions.
It does sound like your idea for a splitter would work and the aforementioned compressor is another idea. I think the point that others are trying to make (some less tactfully than others) is that this is a pretty ordinary circumstance with a somewhat out of the ordinary solution being considered. So we realize we're not exactly answering your question (which is what thread responses are supposed to do) and apologies for that. But do try to understand that we're suggesting the more common solutions before going to an uncommon one.
He's not the only one that can have issues with consistent volume levels, he's just got equipment that makes it really easy to have inconsistent volume. The drums are another source of inconsistency, only with that one I can turn the gain all the way down and it can still be too loud. But that's another problem.
Because we make enough gain adjustments during rehearsal, I still think it would be a worthwhile investment. Whether or not we're mixing the best way we can. Having the signals split would mean we could mess with gain all we want and it won't affect the musicians' IEM mix. It won't fix everything, but it would be one less thing that everyone would have to worry about.
The speakers are powered, so no amps. We've tried for a long time to find the best balance of main fader volume, attenuation, and individual channel gain. We will continue to work on it.
We would love to get rid of amps on stage, but right now we don't have IEMs for every band member. Hopefully someday soon, we will. Just don't have the budget right now.
The board does have built in compressors. I could try using one on the guitar. I'm still learning the best way to use them.
I didn't realize this was such an out of the ordinary solution.
Some of the earlier replies to this thread seemed to imply that I was a stubborn idiot. I know I haven't been doing sound forever and there are still a ton of things to learn, I'm completely open to learning new things or better ways to do things, but just because I don't take your advice, don't assume it's because I'm just a stubborn idiot. Usually if I ignore advice about sound on here, it's because I truly believe it won't work for my situation.
Again, thank you for those of you offering positive input.
If you go for splitters, what will you do about the guitarist's wildly jumping volumes in the wedge and in-ear mixes?
Are you running both boards? (I got the sense that the monitor board was physically separated from the FOH mix position.)
Are you running both boards? (I got the sense that the monitor board was physically separated from the FOH mix position.)
The monitor board is on stage and manged by the musicians. So it'll be up to them to deal with guitar volume changes in the monitors.
You do sound check, set the gain levels. They're not clipping.
During the service, somebody gets louder and starts clipping the channel. They get quieter and can't be heard over everything else.
The thing you're missing, is they are playing louder to cause the clipping, so you are SUPPOSED to turn them down in both the monitors and FOH. Because they got louder than they should be.
If they get quieter so that you have to turn the gain up in the FOH, what makes you think they aren't also too quiet in the in ears, and need to be bumped up there as well? Why should both you and the guy(s) running the monitor board have to duplicate each others efforts? You fix the volume fluctuations at the input gain, and they get a relatively stable mix as a starting point to tweak relative levels of instruments to taste.
It'd be less of a problem if it was small adjustments you needed to make, but if their volume is dropping so drastically that faders can't boost it enough, its just as drastically too low in the inears. Ditto for if they crank it mid service to the point of clipping.
The goal you have in mind is not what you should be shooting for.
The same problems you're facing in the main board will cause problems in the monitor board, and cause them to do a lot of extra fiddling because you won't be fixing those problems in their mix anymore. The idea of them having the capability to get their own mixes is great. But not so they have to also be fixing the same problems you're struggling with.
That's my advice. Don't try to uninvent the wheel and try to make the system do what it's not supposed to do.
Randy
KingRazor said:
This should help them learn what works and what doesn't, and them having to deal with it themselves will make it 'sink in' better. A few weeks of the having to tweak their own monitor mixes coupled with some gentle but persistent recommendations about how to adjust their own gear and playing styles should help.
@steveksux: I see your point. But I also agree with Never_grew_up's point.
Really, we just have to work together. If they like the splitter idea, they'll go for it, otherwise, we'll continue to do what we're doing now until we get a new IEM system (which they were going to buy anyway).
Really, we just have to work together. If they like the splitter idea, they'll go for it, otherwise, we'll continue to do what we're doing now until we get a new IEM system (which they were going to buy anyway).
Alright, a few of you guys get to say "I told ya so".
We were talking with a friend of the church who has been doing sound for years and really knows what he's doing. I've watched him mix and it's really something. He can change the emotion of the room just by moving faders...
He told us straight up: There's no reason to be adjusting gain during the song set.
He set up the gain structure on our board and tonight I used it. Now, he set that up while we had the board away from the building, at a retreat, so when it came back, I had to make a few adjustments, but only on 2 or 3 instruments that were clipping. I used just faders the entire rest of the time. Next week when I mix I will probably not have to touch the gain at all.
One thing he did is use effects to do things like soften voices (reverb). I was able to push a couple things a little hotter than usual because they sounded softer.
Also, one thing about our board is that the built-in compressor comes early enough in the signal chain, that so long as the output of the compressor isn't clipping, it doesn't matter if the channel is clipping in the compressor, because you won't hear distortion in the AUX sends or in the mains because they're post-compressor. I do try to have the gain low enough that it doesn't ever clip, or very rarely does, but this way it'll NEVER clip outside of the compressor.
If they want me to keep from adjusting gain, I'm going to have to make sure and communicate with the band when their signal levels are too weak or too strong. They need to learn to give me consistent levels (tonight they did great!).
So, I've already presented the idea of splitters. If they want to buy some, they can, but if they don't, it doesn't appear that we'll need them.
We do all still want a new IEM system though, like the Roland M-48. Once we have the budget for it, we're getting one.
Things are looking up.
We were talking with a friend of the church who has been doing sound for years and really knows what he's doing. I've watched him mix and it's really something. He can change the emotion of the room just by moving faders...
He told us straight up: There's no reason to be adjusting gain during the song set.
He set up the gain structure on our board and tonight I used it. Now, he set that up while we had the board away from the building, at a retreat, so when it came back, I had to make a few adjustments, but only on 2 or 3 instruments that were clipping. I used just faders the entire rest of the time. Next week when I mix I will probably not have to touch the gain at all.
One thing he did is use effects to do things like soften voices (reverb). I was able to push a couple things a little hotter than usual because they sounded softer.
Also, one thing about our board is that the built-in compressor comes early enough in the signal chain, that so long as the output of the compressor isn't clipping, it doesn't matter if the channel is clipping in the compressor, because you won't hear distortion in the AUX sends or in the mains because they're post-compressor. I do try to have the gain low enough that it doesn't ever clip, or very rarely does, but this way it'll NEVER clip outside of the compressor.
If they want me to keep from adjusting gain, I'm going to have to make sure and communicate with the band when their signal levels are too weak or too strong. They need to learn to give me consistent levels (tonight they did great!).
So, I've already presented the idea of splitters. If they want to buy some, they can, but if they don't, it doesn't appear that we'll need them.
We do all still want a new IEM system though, like the Roland M-48. Once we have the budget for it, we're getting one.
Things are looking up.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Everybody wins. As a thought in the IEM system, I take it the band doesn't move around during the service - walk around on stage, up & down the aisles? You could probably implement a WIRED IEM system much more economically using something like this:
Samson S-phone | Sweetwater.com
or if you want more independent mixes, use a few of these:
Samson C-Que 8 | Sweetwater.com
Send a generic monitor mix (maybe a copy of the FOH mix) to the stereo inputs and a signal from each instrument into the aux/inject input and use the pan/balance control to mix between the FOH and each person's instrument.
Wow, that sounds like an even cheaper option than the one we were considering.
But, that would only support up to 4 boxes, right? We're looking for more like...7
By KingRazor:
"...We're looking for more like...7..."
So buy 2 of them. They're daisychain-able. Just remember they're not wireless so be sure to factor in decent headphones or earbuds, and headphone extension cords - perhaps with volume control built in.
"...We're looking for more like...7..."
So buy 2 of them. They're daisychain-able. Just remember they're not wireless so be sure to factor in decent headphones or earbuds, and headphone extension cords - perhaps with volume control built in.
If we have those boxes, wireless won't be necessary. We have three people on wired headphones already, so it probably wouldn't be much more to get all the other instrumentalists on them. Two of those amps and 7 or 8 boxes would only be 1/3rd the price of the IEM system we were planning on getting. Thanks for sharing that. I'll present that to the worship leaders and see what they think.
Hey King,
Sounds like a complicated situation you got there. I used to run sound at a gospel church where people were passing the microphone from soloist to soloist - all of them different voices and distances from their mouths to the mic etc, etc, so I feel for you. The best option is a splitter just like you mentioned (ART S8 | Sweetwater.com) at the microphone input level and an onstage mixer so you can mix your in ears monitors independently from the house. If it is as you described it - having to adjust the gain at the FOH during the performance, you will probably need the gain adjusted during the performance for the monitor mix too. You may need a live technician on a mixer at the stage simultaneously. We didn't have in ears at this gospel church, just floor monitors but this is what we eventually had to do to please everyone. hope this helps
Sounds like a complicated situation you got there. I used to run sound at a gospel church where people were passing the microphone from soloist to soloist - all of them different voices and distances from their mouths to the mic etc, etc, so I feel for you. The best option is a splitter just like you mentioned (ART S8 | Sweetwater.com) at the microphone input level and an onstage mixer so you can mix your in ears monitors independently from the house. If it is as you described it - having to adjust the gain at the FOH during the performance, you will probably need the gain adjusted during the performance for the monitor mix too. You may need a live technician on a mixer at the stage simultaneously. We didn't have in ears at this gospel church, just floor monitors but this is what we eventually had to do to please everyone. hope this helps
Just as a little "heads up" : be carefull with compression , it's a two sided sword. If you compress too much , when the band plays a harder passage , they'll have a tendency to put up their volume.
It's a marvelous tool but it has to be set with taste and logic.
I personaly like to set the vocals with a lower ratio and lower threasold and higher ratio and higher threasold to more dynamic instruments.
You also don't have the rf coordination issues with any wireless mics or instrument systems...
Don't forget lots of gaff tape for all the headphone cables running around.
You also don't have the rf coordination issues with any wireless mics or instrument systems...
Don't forget lots of gaff tape for all the headphone cables running around.
Actually I've been looking, and while we could probably make that system work, I've been looking into the Hear Back system: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
It looks like it could be easily integrated into our current system and, while more expensive than the Samson system, is still much cheaper than either the Aviom or Roland M-48 systems (8 boxes for < $2500).
I've seen the HEAR system at a trade show & it looked pretty good but I'm surprised it's cheaper than adding m-48's to am existing Roland system.
The M-48 mixers are over $1000 a pop. So unless we got a really good deal, it would be the most expensive option.
That being said, we got our Roland/REAC system for a very good price from a distributor we know, so they might be able to hook us up.
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