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Splitting Bass Guitar and Kick into Separate Sub's

mtsens1

mtsens1

Merle
Supporting Member
Sep 6, 2011
655
671
Kennesaw, Georgia
www.zummo-rocks.com
#1
I recently moved from a single passive sub to a pair of powered sub's for the band I'm in. I have been running them panned with just kick, bass, and floor tom in mono. I'm thinking of trying aux subs, and since I have two aux's available (and 2 subs), was wanting to try bass guitar in one, kick and tom in the other. The drummer is alway's wanting more of the low end kick, and while I can balance it all from the mixer, was thinking having a dedicated sub for him would make it easier to crank that up w/o bass (and possibly floor tom) in the same driver.

So my question is, would this work out well? I try to keep the subs together in center where possible, but anyone know of any cancelation issues with this setup? Pro's/Con's?
 
#2
trying to understand what you're doing here...where are these two subs placed with respect to the stage and FOH PA system? Are the subs pulling double duty, as on-stage speakers that also are carrying volume to the audience, and located near you and the drummer, individually? If so, this is a very unorthodox usage of subwoofers that are to provide sound reinforcement to the audience, and are typically placed at the PA stack position front/side stage. Also, to avoid cancellation nodes, best practice is to stack subwoofers if possible and practical (not always the case in small club PA systems). More commonly you will have a subwoofer under each L/R mains top end PA stack/speaker (100hz and higher), which introduces the possibility of cancellation nodes, but in practice most people just deal with this knowing there may be spots in the listening area with reduced sub coverage. Oh well, that's life.

If you have stage monitoring/volume issues, they should be handled by individual stage monitor systems/mixes, not by integrating subwoofers that ALSO will be serving the audience. I really do think you are overcooking your thinking here IMHO.
 
#3
Give the drummer a throne thumper for his own personal mix.
Let the sound person out front set the levels for house sound.

throne.jpg
 
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#4
I work with a drummer who uses a buttkicker type setup with a discrete in-ear mix of the band, and he loves it...been using it for a couple years now. All of the headaches associated with physical speaker systems for drum monitoring (too much monitor bleed into the drum mics, drum monitor feedback, etc.) has been eliminated. If you have a drummer who really REALLY wants to have a good consistent monitor mix, IEM + buttkicker is a great space saver and the way to go IMO.
 
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#5
You don't tell us what kind of music you play, but one thing pops into my head. Do the audience or the drummer need more low end? If it's just him, give him the sub. The same thing is your bass - is it you who need more bottom, or the audience. There's nothing to stop you running them separately, but even though people always say you cannot determine direction from really low bass, in practice you can - especially when placed wide apart - if you and the kick drum don't play spot on, then in the audience there may well be an unpleasant side to side sensation.

It also depends on how your subs are tuned. I've got a few that do nothing whatsoever for my bass - notes don't seem to come out just a kind of throb. My bottom E could be an F - you can't tell. However, these kick nicely with the bass drum, they do the 'duh' sound brilliantly. The other set are the opposite - the E is definitely an E, so great for my bass - BUT - the bass drum doesn't go 'duh' it's more clicky.

I'd simply try your idea out and see if it works - if it does, then weird or not - do it.
 
#7
Let me be more clear. The subs are for FOH, between the mains, not on the stage. Drummer isn't looking for more kick for him, but for FOH. The previous setup was a little weak for the bottom, hence two powered subs, which BTW are easier for me to load/unload. We play blues and blues rock, some classic rock.
 
#8
Oh, your drummer wants a "more me kick drum" fader (so to speak) for the FOH main mix. Nope. Use just one Aux send if you feel like going that route (as opposed to straight off the mains - assuming the powered subs deal with crossover bandwidth limiting on their own) and do your best to balance the mix to everyone's satisfaction using tried and true methods. What are the model/manufacturer of the subs? Are you having trouble getting enough "kick" out of them to satisfy the drummer? If so, then that's another question altogether, and in order to safely squeeze every last drop of output from the subs, you may need additional EQ/Comp/Limiting, properly dialed in to accomplish this. What are you using for a kick drum mic?
 
#9
mtsens1 said:
Let me be more clear. The subs are for FOH, between the mains, not on the stage. Drummer isn't looking for more kick for him, but for FOH. The previous setup was a little weak for the bottom, hence two powered subs, which BTW are easier for me to load/unload. We play blues and blues rock, some classic rock.
Click to expand...

Why can't you handle this at the mixing board? It doesn't seem like you can accomplish more by TWO separate programs going to TWO separate subs. Other than more that can go wrong.
 
#10
if you're usually able to center-cluster the two subs, then all this would accomplish is not having kick or bass in half of your low end.

don't bother, same thing goes in both subs for maximum fatness.

(also, how many auxes does your board have, that you could theoretically burn two of them just for subs?)
 
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#12
Negative. All dividing the subs up does is halve the sub energy in the drums and bass, as if you backed off both sliders.

What you need is frequency division. Ime having a big kick means giving over the low lows to the kick and bumping 100hz upwards on the bass.

There are other tricks involving gating and compression which I have never had the gear to get into, probably same for you.
 
#13
OK, Per my original post, yes I can control it fine with the mixer with both going into both sub's. So no need for an equipment review (I have 6 aux's btw). My thought simply is with both into same sub, I suspect there is 'some' competition with the speaker driver getting 2 signals if you will, and if anyone TRIED a setup with them split. Pro's/Con's from people that have TRIED it. And yes I know speakers are very capable of handling signals from many instruments. It's something I wondered about, and will test on my own. I'm guessing it wont make a difference to the sound, but will make setup easier with the combo xlr/pwr cables I now have (no more power strips stage front for the subs).
 
#14
Downunderwonder said:
Negative. All dividing the subs up does is halve the sub energy in the drums and bass, as if you backed off both sliders.

What you need is frequency division. Ime having a big kick means giving over the low lows to the kick and bumping 100hz upwards on the bass.

There are other tricks involving gating and compression which I have never had the gear to get into, probably same for you.
Click to expand...
Good point. Thanks!
 
#15
Without having done exactly this with a PA system, we all can imagine the drop in output that would occur. Anyone who has had a matched pair of bass speaker cabs in their bass rig knows the differences sonically comparing using one cabinet vs. two. I guess the question is this: does just ONE of your subwoofers get loud enough amplifying a single source (kick or bass guitar) where the overall mix doesn't suffer for halving the output? If the answer is yes, then you can certainly do what you are proposing, and you will see a benefit due to the elimination of intermodulation distortion (IM) since there is no longer "interplay" between the bass and kick drum in both subs. That certainly is a good thing if you are being a technical purist. This benefit, though, is usually outweighed by the loss in output level in practical application IMHO, and will likely cause you to push your subs harder (especially the kick sub) than otherwise if running kick and bass gtr into both subs. Again, if you have kick-ass subwoofers and output is no issue, then go for it.
 
#16
Downunderwonder said:
Negative. All dividing the subs up does is halve the sub energy in the drums and bass, as if you backed off both sliders.

What you need is frequency division. Ime having a big kick means giving over the low lows to the kick and bumping 100hz upwards on the bass.

There are other tricks involving gating and compression which I have never had the gear to get into, probably same for you.
Click to expand...

Agreed...and may I add, I've never heard of a situation where bass and drums each had dedicated sub enclosures It's almost a good idea but one whose desired outcome(s) would be better served by judicious EQ manipulation at the mixer.

Riis
 
#17
Zooberwerx said:
Agreed...and may I add, I've never heard of a situation where bass and drums each had dedicated sub enclosures It's almost a good idea but one whose desired outcome(s) would be better served by judicious EQ manipulation at the mixer.

Riis
Click to expand...
Right, and I'll add that mixers are designed not to negatively affect the signal when running multiple outs to the PA, unlike bass or guitar amps, which are designed for single sources only and often phase each other out if combined.
 

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