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Squeezing our frontman

B

b to g is yummy

Jan 6, 2007
270
2
Kitchener, Ontario Canada
www.unified-band.com
#1
My band had some trouble with our vocalist just not trying very hard..especially when it came to him pushing himself to improve and learn on his own...

anyway..we let him have it eventually, now he knows where things are at.

band means a lot to him, but he still doesnt seem to totally get involved the way he ought to, even after we basically kicked him outta the band, than let him back in.

i wonder if maybe it has something to do with him only being a singer, i think if he'd learn an instrument it'd make him more of a musician. because right now he's not much of a musician, and that's huge with fronting a band.

he loves fooling around on our keyboardist's board, and i'm thinking it'd be cool if he'd get him a little synth to play in some songs, kinda a keytar style of playing.

i'd love to hear your thoughts on how we can get the most out of him, we want him to want to give his best, not force it. I'd also appreciate thoughts advice on little synths, midi..etc

sry thats some pretty open ended questions, hopefully you can sorta read between the lines

thanks yall :)
 
#4
I think you are on the right track. Adding an intermediate level of proficiency on a new instrument greatly broadens ones musicality. But - as we all know, it takes major woodshedding to do this. Dabbling on keys won't do much. There has to be the fire and drive.
Also, beware this idea you have of using a Keytar. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
 
#5
From the sounds of things, the singer is more than just a band member; but a friend. Most would not let go of a memeber that was not pulling their end and then let them back in; either that or he has a hell of a set of chops on him.

I guess the decision is, do you put the success of the band first and friendship second. Its a sucky position to be in, but something sooner of later your going to have to look at and confront him with it. To use an old cliche. "Your only as strong as your weakest link". Get the rest of the band an go out for a meal, then lay down a fondation for everything you wish to achieve and see how he reacts make your decisions then.
 
#6
ElectrAcoustic said:
If he's already behind on stuff, let him go.. IME, the frontman has to be ultra-involved for anything to move forward.. and that includes all the bizness stuff outside just playing..
Click to expand...

That seems a bit... harsh. I think the concept of the frontman is over-hyped.

Personally, here in the land of semi-sanity, I'd say you might be on the right track. Find what else he likes and let him contribute with more than just a vocal capacity. I like practicing my vocals when I'm screwing around with an instrument, makes me feel more like a musician.

But I wouldnt' cut him off just yet. He may be a bit behind, but that doesn't mean he can't catch up and you still might be better off with him than trying to replace him with god knows who.

So give the guy some time, see what happens, and if he just can't get his act together... then you drop the axe on him.
 
#7
:bassist:
sublime0bass said:
i dont understand this concept of "Frontman"

I thought you all played music?
Click to expand...

I take it you've never been to a gig? Seen a band perform, or for that matter played a gig yourself where there was an audience?

Or perhaps you have the doorman ask all would-be audience members to fill out a questionaire to ensure that they're suitably astute, and musically educated to be able to fully appreciate the nuances of your performance.

At every REAL gig, the audience gets drunk, sings a long to the greatest hits, and pays attention to the singer (or more likely the cute girl in the short skirt who's standing at the bar). Afterwards most of the audience will barely recognise the other band members, never mind identify them (I honestly don't know if people in the audience think I'm playing guitar becasue they don't know the difference between bass and guitar, or because my hair is the same length and colour as the guitarist).

To the audience the singer IS the band. You might not "get it", and/or you might just not like it, but a good singer/frontman makes or breaks a band.

Ian
 
#9
Aaah, and when the bass player is also the singer: God smiles!

Well, most of the time...


Seriously, though, if your singer doesn't play an instrument, he/she needs to work the crowd, making eye contact, etc. The singer isn't tied to one spot, and should move around the stage. If someone else has a few lead vocals, the "lead" can step back and play shakers or cowbell.

Good luck in keeping his focus on the BAND performance and his role in making it solid and consistant.
 
#10
thanks a lot guys for the great responses. one of the major issues is that he is the drummer's brother, and secondly we didnt know for sure who we'd get to replace him...so, i think now we are stuck with him and we might as well make the most of it :S

before we had our big ordeal, he would seemingly do nothing to improve on his own..ie he always held the mic while singing, i had to drill it into him to use the stand sometimes to..give the image of being in control...secondly he had basically no mic technique, and the biggest issue was that he didnt seem to listen to how he was actually sounding ie certain notes were very piercing ..
we strongly suggested voice lessons, and eventually he ordered some online. that was slightly dissapointing because you can't replace someone actually hearing you and telling/showing you how to sing etc..however it was a start

he did improve somewhat after a while with the lessons, and some people noticed.

however he didn't stick with the lessons long...and it was back to us baby sitting him and shots in the dark as to how he could be better.

so..eventually we booted him out of frustration with his lack of drive.

now he's back in the band... and once again we suggested real voice lessons..and his comment was that he's scared he'll get the wrong teacher and they'll ruin his voice. He later said he's going hard core back at the book/cd lessons and he'll try it for a month and see if we notice improvement..so thats logical, a step in the right direction at least it seems.

I just dont want to have to keep nagging him about things, and am worried that a month from now it will be same old same old.

He doesnt write the songs. Typically i do lyrics and our keyboardist does most of the tunes. Then as a band we put things together. Basically he just sits there as we hash things out and throw around ideas, and he sticks to singing the song the way our keyboardist showed him.

I think this may be part of the problem since its almost like he's removed from the writting process, and yet he's the singer. So thats kinda my thinking as to why a synth for him may be a good idea because it could get him more involved and it may also lead him to spend more time away from band spent in playing music and working on our songs. I also understand that not everyone is blessed with creativity..so we cant force einstein ideas out of him..but yea...i think if he plays an instrument it'll make him critique and learn from other music as opposed to just being a naive fan like 95% of the music loving population.

ok..done for now... :) whew!
 
#12
An instrument is a good idea, although you better buy him a perm to go with the keytar :hiding:

The problem is it's going to take a long time before he's up to scratch to be at a decent level to play in a band. I know I played guitar for about 2 years jammed with some friends (other guitarists). Then took up bass for about a year before setting up my first band (a pathetic effort) then another year before I was in a band that I could call a giggable decent band.

I guess I'm demonstrating how I progressed towards being a musician in a band. Being a musician isn't something that you just turn on over night. If he takes up an instrument he's going to suck. Like we all did when we first started. This could end up causing more problems than it solves.

He has to want to take up the instrument. Be drawn to it. Like we all were to bass. If he does it because he has to do it because you told him to do it, then it probably won't last that long. He's got to understand that it requires work to learn an instrument and it's going to be a long time before he starts playing it in a band. If he understands and agrees then, Learning an instrument will be extremely beneficial.

Although learning keys might be a better initial instrument than just keytar (although I admit I know nothing of the ways of the keytar) since keys will be initially more applicable to a wider range of music.
 
#13
theshadow2001 said:
An instrument is a good idea, although you better buy him a perm to go with the keytar :hiding:

The problem is it's going to take a long time before he's up to scratch to be at a decent level to play in a band. I know I played guitar for about 2 years jammed with some friends (other guitarists). Then took up bass for about a year before setting up my first band (a pathetic effort) then another year before I was in a band that I could call a giggable decent band.

I guess I'm demonstrating how I progressed towards being a musician in a band. Being a musician isn't something that you just turn on over night. If he takes up an instrument he's going to suck. Like we all did when we first started. This could end up causing more problems than it solves.

He has to want to take up the instrument. Be drawn to it. Like we all were to bass. If he does it because he has to do it because you told him to do it, then it probably won't last that long. He's got to understand that it requires work to learn an instrument and it's going to be a long time before he starts playing it in a band. If he understands and agrees then, Learning an instrument will be extremely beneficial.

Although learning keys might be a better initial instrument than just keytar (although I admit I know nothing of the ways of the keytar) since keys will be initially more applicable to a wider range of music.
Click to expand...

I agree. If he's not already interested in an instrument, he won't go very far with it. Also...keytars are odious. If he's just got to have a keyboard-type thingie, give him a synth. Really, if he were to become more a part of the writing process, I'd recommend he learn some guitar chords.

I wonder...does this singer know anything about the structure of music? Does he know what key he sings in, for instance?

Guitar would teach him that, and he would be better able to communicate with the entire band if he just knew a few guitar chords to help him.

As for lessons...I tried the "do it yourself" route. It was...meh...at best. I'm looking forward to real lessons, now, and am doing the preparatory work the instructor asked me to do. It will be tough...he's going to pick me apart, and I *must* keep my cool, not go on the defense, and *listen* to him and apply what he says.

I believe your singer needs to do the same. A cd or dvd purchased online can maybe help him with the basics, but there is really no substitute for a human teacher. As for "getting the wrong teacher and ruining his voice"...b.s. He can shop around, or get recommendations from other singers, and find a good one.

Cherie
 
#14
The thing is that the interest to develop must come from inside the vocalist himself. You need to try to wake that interest in him by pointing him in the right direction. Of course it's easier said than done, but check out my posts in the other vocal threads here (both the sticky and the other recent one) for the complete vocal technique (CVT) and ask him to study the introduction material you can find on their web pages for free. Or study together - anyone can learn to sing, provided that you have any sort of musicality, and studying together is more fun than to do it alone. CVT gives the tools to learn how. Invalid Link Removed

(Disclaimer: I'm just a user of the CVT method and have no financial interest in it. I just think it's a great method and want to spread the word about it... :hyper:)
 
#15
sublime0bass said:
i dont understand this concept of "Frontman"

I thought you all played music?
Click to expand...

Frontman... like Jake and Elwood Blues... the Blues Brothers... they sing and work the crowd... Elwood also plays mouth organ... Jake does the flips...

you have "roles" in a group...

Frontman works the crowd

Sideman supports the Frontman

Rhythm section supply the groove

Backing vocals supply the backing vocals...

some roles multi-task in small groups...
 
#19
Steel Hyena said:
That seems a bit... harsh. I think the concept of the frontman is over-hyped.

Personally, here in the land of semi-sanity, I'd say you might be on the right track. Find what else he likes and let him contribute with more than just a vocal capacity. I like practicing my vocals when I'm screwing around with an instrument, makes me feel more like a musician.

But I wouldnt' cut him off just yet. He may be a bit behind, but that doesn't mean he can't catch up and you still might be better off with him than trying to replace him with god knows who.

So give the guy some time, see what happens, and if he just can't get his act together... then you drop the axe on him.
Click to expand...

Sorry if it seems harsh but this is a pretty cut-throat business and there really isn't room for slackers IMO.. The front man/person IME really has to be a driving force.. if they're just in it for the kicks and chicks, that's a problem that you don't want in the long run as experience has shown a lot of the folks here.. just my opinion.. a wise old musician once told me to surround myself with people with talent and drive and it's good advice to pass along.. good luck either way..
 
#20
I did not say that we would get him a keytar, i said something to the effect of a little synth, played keytar style. By that i meant playing simple riffs on a synth..attached to a stand, not a person!..sry about the confusion.

I have had a lot of the same thoughts as many of you's, which let to him being kicked out in the first place. We than decided to try and work things out and help him improve. I was very reluctand, but decided to give him another shot, albeit undeserved.

He has been very drawn to the keyboard all along, so we would not have to persuade him how cool it is...etc. I think it's more the money issue, and time. Vocals would have to come first. Also, if it ends up being fairly unused for a while, i'm sure our keyboardist would enjoy it :)

Last night at practise i actually got a big shot of hope, he was actually talking about his PRACTISING and things he was learning and stuff...he sounded pretty excited about it. We did a bit of recording and he actually sounds much much better than he used to.

I think a lot of this is in my head because i have these ideas of what i expect from a frontman, but not every band works the same. I think of things like a musical wizard, a workhorse, a motivator, an entertainer, and a comedian. I dont think its fair to expect that out of everyone

If he can keep this up i think we'll be ok.
 

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