Stage volume vs PA

[kev451]

This confirms what I suspected -- you are all way too loud on stage.

If your guitar players are each running 100 watt 2x10 combos at "9" on the volume knob then this is a big problem. With that kind of power and speaker area, they should be barely turned up to maybe "3". This is a rough guess because I don't know exactly what amps they have, but I have enough experience to know I'm fairly close in my estimate.

Of course your guitarists want to use the capacity of their amps and it isn't "cool" to run your amp at a setting of "3", which is why so many gigging players are getting less powerful amps. A 15 watt class A tube amp with a single 10" is enough to fill a stage and provide some nice, tubey overdrive when pushed to "9". Yet it wont be so loud as to cause sound problems.

Also, if you're running your 300 watt bass amp at "7", that's probably way too loud, as well. I've been using pretty much the same 300 watt solid state amp with a 1x15 cab for the last 20 years and have never needed to turn it up past "4" even for outdoor shows.

The numbers I used were for example.
A poor one lol. But usually I’m around 3/4/5 depending on the club but I’ve never been more up than that unless I’m in my Garage lol.

 

[EastCoastThump]

This situation is where you want to patch in a hard compressor (brick-wall limiter) into the keys players channel, so to keep a constant level.

I don't want a constant level. I prefer when good keys players intentionally set very different patch volumes to fit different spaces in the band's arrangements. You don't want to run a thin icy-pad background patch at the same volume as a fat synth lead.

But, yeah—I definitely agree I don't want to be riding the keys' volume for every new patch.

 

[jamro217]

Could it be that the feed to the FOH from your guitarists is compromised? If they have bad cables or corroded jacks it could be a problem. Do they know how to communicate with the FOH? Do you get a soundcheck? As others have said, 200 watt guitar combos (with 10s or 12s) should have more than enough power to blow you off the stage. Wish there was an obvious solution.

 

[EdO.]

Wish there was an obvious solution.

There IS an obvious solution, and about 100 posters have spelled it out for you. TURN THE F-YOU-SEE-KAY DOWN!

 

[kev451]

There IS an obvious solution, and about 100 posters have spelled it out for you. TURN THE F-YOU-SEE-KAY DOWN!

No way!!!!!!! Really ?!?!?!?!? what a novel concept.

 

[byacey]

Maybe you should try a different tact. Get the drummer and guitarists playing together at what they think is an appropriate level, and then you bring your bass up into the mix until it sound appropriate to all involved.

It's sounding like you are dictating the starting base sound level which is louder than what everyone else wants to hear. Magical things can happen between musicians at lower levels when everyone is intently listening to each other.

 

[kev451]

Maybe you should try a different tact. Get the drummer and guitarists playing together at what they think is an appropriate level, and then you bring your bass up into the mix until it sound appropriate to all involved.

It's sounding like you are dictating the starting base sound level which is louder than what everyone else wants to hear. Magical things can happen between musicians at lower levels when everyone is intently listening to each other.

I’m not dictating anything....it seems like everyone has inferred that I’ve said I’m turning up my bass volume to the loudest point possible...no where have I said this. I’ve said several times that this isn’t the case. A few people have mentioned closed and open backed cabs and the scooping of their tones. At practice this was addressed and helped quite a bit. I by no means feel I need it be the loudest.

 

[Altitude]

I've done a little of everything in this situation, and I have conclusions:

• In a small club (40-100 people), the IEM/FOH approach is more trouble than the value it creates. Bring your amps, try to keep the volume at a reasonable level, use a small PA (the club's if you're lucky) to run the vocals. This approach is best at 2AM when it's time to pack out and you don't have to disassemble a high-tech IEM system.
• In a midsized theater or something like it (200+ people), you're best off running IEMs, going DI-only if you can, and letting a dedicated FOH guy handle the sound. Your amps aren't going to be loud enough to do the job and stage volume gets out of control past a certain level anyway.

The tough in-between is where you're trying to do IEMs/FOH and the sound guy is one of the band members who is on the stage. And therefore by definition also has IEMs and can't hear the FOH mix. Too much can go wrong there.

Example - just last weekend one of our horn players had a song off, went out front, and came back to tell me there was no bass at all in the FOH. Nobody knew because everyone had their IEMs in. It might have been that way all night long. I was killing it in my own mix, but only I heard that.

Bottom line, if you have someone whose only job is to tend the FOH, an IEM setup is a godsend because you never heard a better stage mix in your life and maybe you don't have to schlep your cabinet. If you don't have someone whose only job is to tend the FOH, stick with amps. Total generalization.

 

[jamro217]

There IS an obvious solution, and about 100 posters have spelled it out for you. TURN THE F-YOU-SEE-KAY DOWN!

Yeah, an obvious solution to the wrong problem. Did you bother to read the first page of replies? The problem is one of guitarists using combo amps that don't seem to be projecting well enough, not one of a loud bassist needing to turn down the volume. If you have no further troubleshooting suggestions or worthwhile advice, rather than cussing in ALL CAPS to those of us trying to help, why not practice arpeggios or something? Have a good night.

 

[kev451]

Yeah, an obvious solution to the wrong problem. Did you bother to read the first page of replies? The problem is one of guitarists using combo amps that don't seem to be projecting well enough, not one of a loud bassist needing to turn down the volume. If you have no further troubleshooting suggestions or worthwhile advice, rather than cussing in ALL CAPS to those of us trying to help, why not practice arpeggios or something? Have a good night.

Thanks so many good ideas people have presented that I’ve brought to my guys and they are looking into. And you have a few bitter toolbags who don’t bother reading anything said. But will comment with an “informed” response.

 

[kev451]

Maybe you should try a different tact. Get the drummer and guitarists playing together at what they think is an appropriate level, and then you bring your bass up into the mix until it sound appropriate to all involved.

It's sounding like you are dictating the starting base sound level which is louder than what everyone else wants to hear. Magical things can happen between musicians at lower levels when everyone is intently listening to each other.

This is actually something that is sound advice thanks I can def try this at practice next week.

 

[Chango Malo]

to be honest kev, the way you presented the issue early in the thread made it sound like stage volumes were a problem. As the thread rolled along it still seems like there may be some stage volume issues, but more than likely there's other stuff going on as well. To be fair, it's darn hard to diagnose remotely. it's the kind of thing you need to be there and hear to understand. Hell, it may even be a phasing issue (unlikely though. unless someone's running a stereo effect and has it all boojied up). All the advice in the thread is worth trying, dismissing any of it out of hand seems counterintuitive. That said, only someone (you) actually listening at the time of the offense is going to be able to say "bingo, that's the bunny".
Just curious, but did any of the sound guys voice an opinion?

Hope you get it sorted...

 

[jamro217]

Are the combo speakers as high off the stage as the cabs? That may make a difference.

 

[kev451]

to be honest kev, the way you presented the issue early in the thread made it sound like stage volumes were a problem. As the thread rolled along it still seems like there may be some stage volume issues, but more than likely there's other stuff going on as well. To be fair, it's darn hard to diagnose remotely. it's the kind of thing you need to be there and hear to understand. Hell, it may even be a phasing issue (unlikely though. unless someone's running a stereo effect and has it all boojied up). All the advice in the thread is worth trying, dismissing any of it out of hand seems counterintuitive. That said, only someone (you) actually listening at the time of the offense is going to be able to say "bingo, that's the bunny".
Just curious, but did any of the sound guys voice an opinion?

Hope you get it sorted...

Yes they would tell the guys during each members turn the usual stuff turn up or down but TBH more often than not they would be told to turn up. I start Low and wait to be told go up or down. Due to their issues I go even lower even Ater being told by the sound guy that im good to go.

 

[kev451]

Are the combo speakers as high off the stage as the cabs? That may make a difference.

Nope they keep them on the ground Unless the place has a back line I usually bring a 4x10 cab. And go off of what the sound guy tells me in terms of volume.

 

[jamro217]

Nope they keep them on the ground Unless the place has a back line I usually bring a 4x10 cab. And go off of what the sound guy tells me in terms of volume.

Try putting combo amps up off the floor. A chair or table may be the right height to simulate the position of the cabs. You may have seen the threads here about vertically stacked 2-10 cabs instead of the traditional square 4x10. They disperse the sound in different patterns. This could be the answer. To avoid confusion, the thread is about bass amps, but the concept is about acoustics in general.

 

[kev451]

Try putting combo amps up off the floor. A chair or table may be the right height to simulate the position of the cabs. You may have seen the threads here about vertically stacked 2-10 cabs instead of the traditional square 4x10. They disperse the sound in different patterns. This could be the answer. To avoid confusion, the thread is about bass amps, but the concept is about acoustics in general.

So raising them in height off the ground will help acoustics of things heard ? Hmmm ok should hey be certain height or is it kinda like you gotta play around and see what works ?

 

[jamro217]

So raising them in height off the ground will help acoustics of things heard ? Hmmm ok should hey be certain height or is it kinda like you gotta play around and see what works ?

Try putting them so the speakers in the combos are about the same height as the top two speakers in your 4x10. Angle them back if you have to. Every room is different, but that would be a good starting point. Hope this helps. There's nothing more frustrating than a problem that refuses to be solved.

 

[kev451]

Try putting them so the speakers in the combos are about the same height as the top two speakers in your 4x10. Angle them back if you have to. Every room is different, but that would be a good starting point. Hope this helps. There's nothing more frustrating than a problem that refuses to be solved.

Thank you, I’ll talk to them about bringing the amps up more in terms of height.