Steely Dan's Freddie Washington is being robbed on tour

[Loud and Clear]

He's probably making decent coin Steely Dan isn't a bass player freedom gig.

You betcha. In fact, I'd wager that it's a pretty structured environment for ALL of the "hired hands" that are fortunate enough to get a Steely Dan reference in their body of work.

ugggg.... I'm soooo sick of incompetent soundmen. Of course the venue is a part of the problem but why on earth does the stinking BD ect. need to be CRANKED every single show?!?!?!?! Dont even get me started...

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying; you are suggesting that Steely Dan would have "incompetent soundmen" touring with them, and that you personally have a better handle on what the mix should be than the top echelon, high dollar, professional production personnel that work for and tour with Steely Dan?

One more question, who do you run sound for that gives you this insight?

Well, you only saw one show. Most large concert venues are really designed for sporting events, and most have pretty bad acoustics. Could have just been a weird room.

Of course, it's entirely possible OP encountered a very competent soundman, who determined that the mixing console's location was in the null of one of the venue's standing waves and hence adjusted his mix to compensate. Freddy's bass might have quite nicely audible several feet to the left/right or front/back of that location.

I wouldn't say that every room will be perfect every night, but current cutting edge line arrays, DSP, and highly trained personnel can pretty much cope with any acoustic anomalies that a band of the caliber of Steely Dan will encounter on tour. I don't know which production house does Steely Dan's live sound, or looked at their schedule to see what venues they, but…

I'll bet that they are using a top tier company, and they try to stick with theater venues as much as possible. Becker and Fagen are known to be pretty serious (putting it nicely) about the musical product they put out both in the studio and live.

Individual listeners may or may not like what they hear, but you can be pretty freekin' sure they are what hearing what the powers that be want them to hear.

 

[tonemachine]

Hey Jimmy. They obviously love their bass if albums say anything. I bet they werent aware. Check out the youtube videos of Ready live with them. They let him jam it up. A shame if he can't be heard live.

Whoa, I'll now defer to Mr Sadowsky.

 

[petrus61]

I have personally mentioned this to Walter Becker many times.......I doubt it is the soundmen.

That's what I'm thinking. They use very powerful rhythm sections but they're a little subdued and looser live. I'm sure the solo sections see a touch of level increase on the board, but they want the focus more on the melody and vox. I've also noticed the main lead guitarist (who is phenomenal, forget his name but not Walter) sits back in the mix as well. I actually noticed that the most out of the couple times I saw them.

I went to Levon Helms Midnight Ramble a few months before he passed and Donald held down upright piano/backup vox and brought along their guitarist, who was front and center volume wise. Donald sat way back in the mix. It was a real treat.

I really do not think for a second, knowing how regimented they are that they would have an incompetent sound man. Also, every night and every room can't be a winner, sound wise.

 

[themarshall]

+1 tonemachine

I was thinking "who's this guy?", then I looked at the username.

 

[AltGrendel]

Of course, it's entirely possible OP encountered a very competent soundman, who determined that the mixing console's location was in the null of one of the venue's standing waves and hence adjusted his mix to compensate. Freddy's bass might have quite nicely audible several feet to the left/right or front/back of that location.

That is not the case so much any more. Check out the Yamaha M7 for example; you attache that puppy to a network, download their software to an iPad and you can check the mix from anywhere in the house (depending on your wireless range). Makes a huge difference. But usually these days bands like that travel with their own sound guy that just plugs in a USB stick with a saved show. They might do minor tweaks but otherwise just leave it.

 

[Robus]

I'm surprised to hear it. Recently I bought Steely Dan's entire catalog of albums and have been listening to them. I had not heard most of their album cuts for 20-30 years. Just yesterday I listened to their Alive in America. The quality of bass playing on their records is excellent without exception, but that live album! Man. The drums and bass are phenomenal.

 

[interp]

Donald Fagan probably made it clear to Mr. Washington that this was a supporting role and if they wanted him higher in the mix, they would have him higher in the mix. While the bass has always played a very integral role in their music, it has almost always been in the service of the song as a whole. Most people come to a Steely Dan show to hear the songs, not the bass player.

I go to a Steely Dan show to hear the songs, and I want to hear ALL the instruments. I would wager that most SD fans agree with me.

 

[petrus61]

I go to a Steely Dan show to hear the songs, and I want to hear ALL the instruments. I would wager that most SD fans agree with me.

I agree and I expect to hear all of the instruments too, but I don't expect the bass to be more prominent in their mix than vocals or keys. I don't think anyone is saying that the bass isn't audible at all, just that it's a little low in the mix. If I went to a Steely Dan show, I wouldn't be that disappointed unless I couldn't hear the bass at all. If the mix was that disproportionate, I'm sure it would be addressed a few songs in. I'd be willing to bet that out of the several hundred people in the audience, maybe five of them walked away saying "Great show, but I couldn't hear the bass player."

 

[JimmyM]

Hey Jimmy. They obviously love their bass if albums say anything. I bet they werent aware. Check out the youtube videos of Ready live with them. They let him jam it up. A shame if he can't be heard live.

I won't pretend to know the inner workings of Steely Dan, but according to Roger Sadowsky, they're well aware of it and want it that way.

 

[SoCal1]

I'm sure they don't want anything to interfere with Donalds (duck like) "quirky" vocals...LOL

 

[JimmyM]

I'm sure they don't want anything to interfere with Donalds (duck like) "quirky" vocals...LOL

You most likely hit the nail on the head. The single most important signal on any stage (despite the insanely wrong opinion of many soundmen who seem to feel it's the bass drum mic) is the lead singer's mic.

 

[jerry]

I saw him with the Dukes Of September a few years back, basically the Steely Dan backing band along with Fagen, Michael McDonald and Boz Scaggs. The mix was ok, could have used more Freddy but I knew its about the singers. The mix must be Fagan's call. That whole band is great but I really dig guitarist Jon Herington too, I've seen him a few times with the Dan crew, always great!

 

[pnchad]

I've been on a SD kick in recent months & saw them last about 3 yrs ago in Boca Raton

you have to remember they spent years in post overdubbing stuff on most of their releases and the traveling band is pretty big to this day - 14 pieces I think - the music is very dense and rich so individual instruments, other than soloist, get blended

even though the bass really stands out in many of their best recordings, it's hard to reproduce that live

 

[bottomend!]

Of course, it's entirely possible OP encountered a very competent soundman, who determined that the mixing console's location was in the null of one of the venue's standing waves and hence adjusted his mix to compensate. Freddy's bass might have quite nicely audible several feet to the left/right or front/back of that location.

and... approaching the gig this way would indicate that the sound man would be incompetent. When I listen to a FOH guy telling me that he " mixes for his position" I have to laugh and simultaneously cry of course... because they are a) either selfish or b) incompetent.

The technology exists today that allows the mixer to check his mix from any point in the room ( as mentioned above) so he can deal with standing waves, nulls ect. No excuse anymore.

I know it's a game of unending compromises to fill a large space with balanced sound (not a newbie here in this regard) but when the combination of compromises leans SOOOO far to the side of the bass nearly disappearing - thats when we are witnessing incompetence... unless of course unless it becomes the choice of the artist (which sounds like the case in this band) then it's just idiocy or some other emotional/mental condition like fear, or jealousy ect.?
I've played with lots of people who would rather fail their own way rather than succeed someone elses way. (and please save yourself the finger power and try not to take what I'm saying out of context by assuming that I dont consider SD successful. That would be wholly asinine of me and naive of you.)
How else can it be explained that an artist would choose to have an instrument on stage (in this case an electric bass) and then actively choose NOT to have that person represented in the mix? Mental head game? Poor artistic choices? Self sabotage? Ego tripping?

All that being said, I'm not trying to be harsh here and I mean no disrespect to SD and co. In my original post I half jokingly stated.. " dont get me started" and well... here I am. ugggg.

 

[pnchad]

Ooooookay

 

[bottomend!]

You betcha. In fact, I'd wager that it's a pretty structured environment for ALL of the "hired hands" that are fortunate enough to get a Steely Dan reference in their body of work.



You ---
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying; you are suggesting that Steely Dan would have "incompetent soundmen" touring with them, and that you personally have a better handle on what the mix should be than the top echelon, high dollar, professional production personnel that work for and tour with Steely Dan?

Me---

on the path to understanding....It wouldn't make sense in the real world but I've seen/heard it myself and lived through to tell the tale. Roger S. probably put an end to the OP's dilemma in his answer so it seems like the FOH guy isn't the "issue" here ( I VERY politely didn't use the word PROBLEM for a reason ha ha ha!)

You----
One more question, who do you run sound for that gives you this insight?

I've worked with the a number of absolute top shelf sound companies/people on and off for my professional entire life. I know good sound and how to achieve it, and I know why it's bad when it gets out of hand. It's all about "the carve" and the math involved.
And FWIW I didn't just give myself the name bottomend!... I EARNED it! ha ha ha




You----
I'll bet that they are using a top tier company, and they try to stick with theater venues as much as possible. Becker and Fagen are known to be pretty serious (putting it nicely) about the musical product they put out both in the studio and live.

Me---
yeah they have the rep for being utter perfectionists, which seems like that philosophy should translate into possibly the best sound live... makes no sense to me.

You---
Individual listeners may or may not like what they hear, but you can be pretty freekin' sure they are what hearing what the powers that be want them to hear.
Me---
If thats the case then it's sad because I'm sure that not only a bunch of bass players on a forum board are displease with their SD concert experience.

 

[joebar]

Does it sound good overall?
I hate it when the bass stands out from the overall picture. It's unbalanced, but not hearing it at all is of course not good either.
Steely dan would be my absolute dream gig!

you would have to kill me because I am in front of you in the line up

 

[joebar]

so the soundguy had an off night-
probably not the norm as these guys are ferocious about perfection.
each instrument is well balanced on the albums with no real preference given to one over the others.
SD is all about the fagen vocal-
take that out, and you have an SD tribute band.

 

[floydman]

gotta love Keith Carlock back on the kit too!

 

[obimark]

I saw U2 on their last mega-tour at the Georgia Dome- I saw Adam Clayton move his hand a lot with his pick, but never heard a SINGLE note he played.
The acoustics were awful in the sets i had, (and bad in the Dome period).
It was amazing to me, I could hear the bass drum, some of Bono, and a little of Edge's guitar but not a single bass note. Sucked.
I vowed never to see another concert in that arena again.