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Stereo routing question

JimboP

JimboP

Jul 16, 2012
751
1,429
Mullumbimby, Australia
#1
I’m just learning about live sound so please forgive me if this is obvious. I’ve searched the ‘stereo rig’ related threads but couldn’t find a specific answer for my situation.

I’m building a setup for practice and gigging, with a synth bass and fx chain, mono early in the chain and stereo towards the end. I have an Ampeg V4B/212 cab and am putting together a small PA, so far 2x QSC K10s and a single KS118 sub. I want to use the Ampeg rig for my stage sound and the PA for stereo FOH sound.

Wondering what’s the best way to send the stereo signal to FOH and also a mono signal to the amp for stage sound?

I assume a stereo DI into a mixing desk is the best way to for the FOH sound? I know you can plug straight into the QSCs, but figure a balanced signal into a mixing desk is a better and more versatile way to go?

For the signal to the amp, is there something like a stereo DI with a mono thru that can split the signal before it goes to the desk?

Or is there a completely different way to go about it? Any advice on how to route it all together and also recommendations on specific gear much appreciated

Thanks in advance :thumbsup:
 
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#2
Not really sure what you are asking.. but...
Yeah, you need a mixing desk (mixer) to combine signals before sending to your PA (QSC's).
The mixer is the center point of your PA. Anything you want to go into your FOH speakers is hooked up to the mixer, blended and send to the QSC's.
If you are not putting your bass into the PA then it's standalone and there's nothing more you need to do. You DO NOT send a signal from the mixer to the bass amp - it's the other way around (if you put bass in the PA).
PA's are inherently stereo (L/R) but don't work that way as most inputs to the mixer are MONO (single channel input). For a small PA one would put vocals, acoustic guitar, keys and [maybe] kick into it. Bass, guitars would all have their own amps and be backline.
Depending on how many inputs one needs (and budget) a small-footprint digital console (Behringer?, Mackie?) would be the best choice!
Hope this clarifies some..
Feel free to ask specific questions..
 
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#3
A couple ways to do it:
1. My recommendation is: stereo effects into 2-channel DI (or two 1-channel DIs) into mixer. Use your mixer's aux channels to send the sound into monitors (wedges or IEM) for the stage.
2. Another way: stereo effects into 2-channel DI (or two 1-channel DIs) into mixer. Use the through output on the DI's to go into a summing pedal . Then to an amp.
 
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#4
If you like messing with op-amps and resistors you can make a passive adder with a gain=2 amp being fed from the centre point of the passive adder, which is two equal high value resistors, 470K or even 1 Meg. This can have the advantage that a high-resistance output like a guitar with passive electronics could feed one side of the adder directly at need. The gain is set on the inverting input of the op-amp and can use low value resistors to keep the circuit noise low, because the passive adder is on the extremely high input resistance of the non-inverting input. Yet another advantage of the method is that at no point is the polarity reversed so you won't have trouble with inverse phase between any signals.

It's basically like a very simple active DI method that can take two inputs, mix them to mono, then buffer them to send on to whatever. Bear in mind that unity gain is best got by grounding one input if you're only going to use the other one.

Total parts count is one op-amp and four resistors.
 
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#5
@s0c9 sorry if I was unclear. I was too lazy to draw a diagram, which would probably have been helpful. My question was basically “how do I split my signal to send stereo direct to the mixer/PA and mono to my bass amp?”

@SoCal80s your second suggestion is exactly the info I was hoping for! Thank you so much. Do any 2-channel DIs sum internally to a mono output, or would a separate summing pedal be the standard way to do it?

@Lostgallifreyan I have no doubt what you are saying is true, but alas, a bit beyond my pay grade. Thanks though!
 
#7
mike buzzetti said:
bass fx stereo out to line IN on mixer ch 1&2 etc., pan the 2 ch's L/R , send AUX out to bass amp mono , LOW LEVELS to not overdrive the input , reduce gain on amp . done .
Click to expand...
Thanks @mike buzzetti, that's the other possibility I wondered about... so 2-channel DI to mixer and then send AUX out from mixer to the amp. Reduce gain on amp due to this being a line level signal... is that right?

Is there any advantage/disadvantage of this method vs the DI + summing pedal method?
 
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#8
JimboP said:
Thanks @mike buzzetti, that's the other possibility I wondered about... so 2-channel DI to mixer and then send AUX out from mixer to the amp. Reduce gain on amp due to this being a line level signal... is that right?

Is there any advantage/disadvantage of this method vs the DI + summing pedal method?
Click to expand...
Yes, but you wont need a DI ,going LINE IN to the mixer should be fine.
 
#9
JimboP said:
Do any 2-channel DIs sum internally to a mono output, or would a separate summing pedal be the standard way to do it?
Click to expand...
I don't know of any DIs that do summing internally.

You later asked about DI's. A DI box serves two functions. One is to convert the signal to mic level and the second is to convert the signal to a balanced signal. Long story short, both of these functions prevent picking up practically any noise as the signal passes through the cable on the way to the mixer. Whereas an instrument cable can pick up noise from electronic/radio interference, especially over long cable runs. If you can keep the cable run under 15 ft or so, then you might be OK with just an instrument cable if the mixer accepts line level inputs. But I suggest always using a DI box so you get the cleanest signal to your mixer.
 
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#10
SoCal80s said:
I don't know of any DIs that do summing internally.

You later asked about DI's. A DI box serves two functions. One is to convert the signal to mic level and the second is to convert the signal to a balanced signal. Long story short, both of these functions prevent picking up practically any noise as the signal passes through the cable on the way to the mixer. Whereas an instrument cable can pick up noise from electronic/radio interference, especially over long cable runs. If you can keep the cable run under 15 ft or so, then you might be OK with just an instrument cable if the mixer accepts line level inputs. But I suggest always using a DI box so you get the cleanest signal to your mixer.
Click to expand...
Perfect, thanks :thumbsup:
 
#11
SoCal80s said:
I don't know of any DIs that do summing internally.

You later asked about DI's. A DI box serves two functions. One is to convert the signal to mic level and the second is to convert the signal to a balanced signal. Long story short, both of these functions prevent picking up practically any noise as the signal passes through the cable on the way to the mixer. Whereas an instrument cable can pick up noise from electronic/radio interference, especially over long cable runs. If you can keep the cable run under 15 ft or so, then you might be OK with just an instrument cable if the mixer accepts line level inputs. But I suggest always using a DI box so you get the cleanest signal to your mixer.
Click to expand...
how long is your bass cable ??
 
#14
mike buzzetti said:
As long as he's not using a 25ft cable the noise levels will be fine , 2 DI boxes worth their salt are $200 , just keep the runs short as possible. He might have line level out , not sure what bass synth he's using so ??
Click to expand...
Complex chain.. passive bass (Fender Mustang) into various analog and digital pedals (synth, octave, fuzz, envelope, modulation, delay etc), desktop drone synths, Moog Minitaur, small mixer to bring it all together.

I also just came across this youtube vid, which is interesting.

I don't think it will change how I approach my set up at this point. I'll try the suggestions here first and see how it goes. The amp is basically just for my stage sound, after all, and the PA will do the stereo magic. Otherwise I'd be looking at a 2-amp set up for stage sound, which is a bit overkill

Thanks everyone for the advice :thumbsup:
 
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#16
SoCal80s said:
I don't know of any DIs that do summing internally.

You later asked about DI's. A DI box serves two functions. One is to convert the signal to mic level and the second is to convert the signal to a balanced signal. Long story short, both of these functions prevent picking up practically any noise as the signal passes through the cable on the way to the mixer. Whereas an instrument cable can pick up noise from electronic/radio interference, especially over long cable runs. If you can keep the cable run under 15 ft or so, then you might be OK with just an instrument cable if the mixer accepts line level inputs. But I suggest always using a DI box so you get the cleanest signal to your mixer.
Click to expand...
Sorry, one last question... assuming I go the DI route for the stereo signal to mixer, is there any advantage/disadvantage of mixer aux send vs summing pedal for the mono signal to the amp?
 
#17
JimboP said:
Sorry, one last question... assuming I go the DI route for the stereo signal to mixer, is there any advantage/disadvantage of mixer aux send vs summing pedal for the mono signal to the amp?
Click to expand...
It can work, but sending aux from a mixer into an amp may create noise issues because the amp input is not balanced (in order to preserve the benefits of balanced signal the output, the cable, and the input has to be balanced). So it is recommended to use a reamp box if you want to do that. The reamp box keeps the long cable run balanced and then you use a short cable from the box to the amp. Again, you might be OK if you keep the cable run short, but the longer the cable run the more you want to use balanced cables.
 
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#19
SoCal80s said:
It can work, but sending aux from a mixer into an amp may create noise issues because the amp input is not balanced (in order to preserve the benefits of balanced signal the output, the cable, and the input has to be balanced). So it is recommended to use a reamp box if you want to do that. The reamp box keeps the long cable run balanced and then you use a short cable from the box to the amp. Again, you might be OK if you keep the cable run short, but the longer the cable run the more you want to use balanced cables.
Click to expand...
That's very good to know, thanks again :thumbsup:

musicman7722 said:
I am missing the reason you need stereo in and mono our? Stereo fx re pretty much useless in a live situation.
Click to expand...
Because I want to use my bass amp for stage sound but send a stereo signal to the PA, so I need to split the signal before it goes to my amp. I'm playing around with synth bass, desktop & drone synths, layering and looping, heavy on fx including stereo delays etc. Just experimenting and having fun with it.
 
#20
JimboP said:
Because I want to use my bass amp for stage sound but send a stereo signal to the PA, so I need to split the signal before it goes to my amp. I'm playing around with synth bass, desktop & drone synths, layering and looping, heavy on fx including stereo delays etc. Just experimenting and having fun with it.
Click to expand...
It's still not clear to me why you need to "send a stereo signal to the PA" for bass? I get the other stuff you mentioned, but those should all be separate feeds to the mixer so you can control the blend in the PA - same for bass!
Did I miss an explanation in the thread?
 

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