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Sterile vs. Transparent vs. HiFi

#41
carl-anton said:
...and that's an electrical signal that can be measured, which makes it possible to know if you amplify it without coloring it, right? E.i. in that sense, hi-fi is truly possible, and not prone to affore mentioned loop. (...is that e.i. or i.e.?)
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You'll know if it's being reproduced without colouration, but the rub is actually accomplishing that. It's not possible with real circuits and especially loudspeakers. There will always be some colouration in any amplification system. For me the qualities of the colouration define whether that system is good or not, and of course, this is highly subjective...:D
 
#42
I mean, what is the "true sound" of your bass. If you have a solid body instrument like 95+% of us bass guitarists have, how can you assess what the true sound is? Doing 16th note funk without an amp and comparing it to doing the same thing through a series of heads set flat and a buncha different cabinets? What a waste of time!!!

A sound with no coloration.....I don't think that's possible....for instance, every preamp and every integrated amp's tone controls, every passive and active tone control on the bass itself colors the sound even if it's set FLAT.

Do you notice that with your amp's tone controls perfectly flat, that another amp, set the same way will make your bass sound totally different through the same speaker cabinet. Every piece of preamplification and amplification we use "colors" the sound of our instrument to an audible degree, maybe some more than others , but ALL contribute to changing, rather altering the almost unhearable solid body bass without amplification and changing it into the vast variety of tones we hear..Even the best, top-notch recording studio equipment will color the tone of the instruments and voices in the mix. One studio's flat settings makes the bass sound different than another studio's. Happens all the time.

LIke I said, these discussions are certainly interesting but everyone's perception and description of tone terms like punchy, sterile, mushy, phat, thin, glistening highs, flat response, hi-fi etc. etc. in the REAL world is all in the ears of the beholder. Again what's important is that you as a bassist are heard, are comfortable with the sound live or in the studio live, and that you are striving to add positive musicality to your band's live and recording performace. Whether that tone is described as sterile, flat, or hifi is not really the main concern here in MHO.

LKaye
 
#44
Mark Reccord said:
You'll know if it's being reproduced without colouration, but the rub is actually accomplishing that. It's not possible with real circuits and especially loudspeakers. There will always be some colouration in any amplification system. For me the qualities of the colouration define whether that system is good or not, and of course, this is highly subjective...:D
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Yes you're right, hi-fi refers to an ideal, that can not be reached. But not obtaining true hi-fi, is not a matter of subjective meaning. Only how you like the results of trying is subjective.
 
#45
Someone mentioned that Hi-Fi is used to indicate hyped lows/highs with scooped mids. Doesn't Hi-Fi mean "high fidelity"? Maybe I'm a little anal retentive, but it bugs me when people use words that mean something other than what they think they mean. If you don't use words that mean what you wish to say, then you aren't communicating what you intend.

Example: here in Oklahoma everyone seems to call the insect cicadas by the wrong name of locusts. Meanwhile locusts are called grasshoppers. I guess odd things irk me.
:hiding:
 
#47
Kael said:
Someone mentioned that Hi-Fi is used to indicate hyped lows/highs with scooped mids. Doesn't Hi-Fi mean "high fidelity"? Maybe I'm a little anal retentive, but it bugs me when people use words that mean something other than what they think they mean. If you don't use words that mean what you wish to say, then you aren't communicating what you intend.

Example: here in Oklahoma everyone seems to call the insect cicadas by the wrong name of locusts. Meanwhile locusts are called grasshoppers. I guess odd things irk me.
:hiding:
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You obviously didn't read all the posts. But you're right.
 
#49
Originally Posted by Chasarms
Which makes the use of high fidelity somewhat of a misnomer when discussing bass rigs. The rig isn't reproducing anything, but rather producing it.
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KJung said:
That's the best post so far... totally nails the issue to me.
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It totally hits my thump, so to speak. If an amplifier isn't reproducing the electric signal that comes from a bass, I don't follow anymore. But if you guys mean that due to the inevitably coloring of that reproduction, there is a sense in which you can say that the rig produces (some of) the bass sound, I agree.
 
#51
Mark Reccord said:
Many stereo systems have F-M curve compensation. It's called the 'Loudness' button. The circuit attenuates midrange and boosts low end and sibilance. The purpose is ostensibly to provide a more realistic reproduction at lower levels. Unfortunately, it's almost never used as intended as people keep it on at higher levels.
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Actually, I think you'll find that a lot of hi-fi implementations account for that with a tapped volume pot that bypasses the loudness boost after a certain increment is reached on the volume control. Probably this is more for preservation of the amp and speakers than for any aesthetic concern though, unfortunately. It often seems to me that the threshold for bypass is set often way too high, at least on the hi-fi gear I've worked on. Yamaha has an interesting system that lets you set "flat" compensation at the highest anticipated listening level, then factors increasing mid cut as you turn down the volume control. I might know a homebrew bass gear builder or two who've played with this idea as well. :ninja:

The rest of your points all make sense too, and more or less echo what I was getting at.
 
#52
carl-anton said:
It totally hits my thump, so to speak. If an amplifier isn't reproducing the electric signal that comes from a bass, I don't follow anymore. But if you guys mean that due to the inevitably coloring of that reproduction, there is a sense in which you can say that the rig produces (some of) the bass sound, I agree.
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My interpretation of that post is that (as another poster pointed out) there really isn't an inherent sound of a bass guitar, as there is with an upright. Sound reproduction of an upright (assuming it's a decent instrument) involves reproducing the sound as if the instrument wasn't amplified. with an electric bass, that obviously isn't the case... nobody (that I know of) puts a mike in front of the bridge of an electric bass to get the 'true sound'. So, for EB, the wood, the pickups, the preamp, the power amp and the cab all combine to make either a great sound or a not so great sound. The concept of reproducing a 'pure' signal or whatever loses its meaning... the amps and cabs are literally a part of the instrument... hence the term electric bass :)
 
#53
KJung said:
My interpretation of that post is that (as another poster pointed out) there really isn't an inherent sound of a bass guitar, as there is with an upright. Sound reproduction of an upright (assuming it's a decent instrument) involves reproducing the sound as if the instrument wasn't amplified. with an electric bass, that obviously isn't the case... nobody (that I know of) puts a mike in front of the bridge of an electric bass to get the 'true sound'. So, for EB, the wood, the pickups, the preamp, the power amp and the cab all combine to make either a great sound or a not so great sound. The concept of reproducing a 'pure' signal or whatever loses its meaning... the amps and cabs are literally a part of the instrument... hence the term electric bass :)
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Put that way, I'm with you.
 
#54
fun topic.

like i heard or read once and am fond of repeating, "talking about tone is like fishing about spaghetti"

we just can't agree on what all the various adjectives mean. Tehn even if we can, the differences between two peices of gear can be so subtle as to defy description. sure, we can scope everything out and say amp A has a 2 dB dip from 350 Hz - 375 Hz compared to amp B, but can we all conceptualize exactly what that sounds like? (and that's a gross oversimplification of what you'll find).

Also, the output of elctricinstruments like EG and BG are not always all that nice sounding. Some of the original preamp circuits like the RCA one used in the fender tone stack hype up the bass and treble as the signal from the EG/BG is midrange heavy and doesnt sound as "full range" as an acoustic giutar or DB. Add that to the fact that all electronic circuits add distortion to the signal, and that the holy grail "bare wire with gain" just isn't possible.

But forget all that. Ultimately you'll find that some amps sound good to you and some don't. The fact that they may be more or less "colored" is irrelevant. Having done extensive comparison of amps, preamps, speakers, etc, I've found that i tend to like something about most of them. I've also found that it's often a lot harder to hear the difference between things like preamps than you'd think, especially when their eq sections are left flat. This is especially difficult when someone else is playing, and a third person is switching between preamps. As the listener, you can often be fooled about what you are hearing, and if in fact a change has been made at all. ;)

to make matters worse, often when we're trying out gear we are way too close to it, and what the amp actually sounds like 10' or more away is lost to us.
 
#56
In terms of the signal coming out of the jack on the electric bass, you can't define what "flat" consists of. There is no such thing as "fidelity." Faithful to what? An upright bass? The system is the instrument, and you make it sound how you want it to sound. Hopefully.

What's more, the classic tone of the electric bass involved a combination of the bass, an amp with mild distortion, and a speaker with anything but flat response. Many players still consider "fidelity" to consist of adherence to the classic tone.

Something happened with the advent of solid state bass amps -- people started plugging their electric basses into amps that had flat frequency response and minimal distortion. Next, with widespread use of Thiele-Small design, speakers with flatter response became available. These are a departure from the classic sound of a bass.

Terms like hi-fi, sterile, and transparent are purely subjective IMHO. Here is what I prefer to do instead. First, describe the equipment in objective terms. For instance, my bass amp has flat response, zero distortion, hard clipping, and a classic speaker response curve.

Next, describe your subjective experiences. I find my amp to be responsive and punchy, but with unpleasant distortion when I push it too hard.
 
#57
Chasarms said:
Which makes the use of high fidelity somewhat of a misnomer when discussing bass rigs. The rig isn't reproducing anything, but rather producing it.
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That's more determined by the intent of the designer/manufacturer.

A bass guitar system (head or (preamp + power amp) + speaker system(s)) does amplify and reproduce the signal from the bass guitar.

Intentionally or not (as previously stated) all components of all types of systems introduce colorations to various degrees.

The intent of some companies (for instance: Euphonic Audio and Accugroove) is to minimize the coloration introduced.

Some companies have their own 'sound' that is a part of their product and marketing and most of their equipment's design is aimed at reproducing that signature sound (for instance: Ampeg and Eden).

Luckily, we all have different tastes in tone.
Makes for a very rich tonal palette available to us bassists.
 
#58
lo-freq said:
Intentionally or not (as previously stated) all components of all types of systems introduce colorations to various degrees.

The intent of some companies (for instance: Euphonic Audio and Accugroove) is to minimize the coloration introduced.
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This is true, but there are some subtleties. It is possible to reduce colorations to the point where they are inaudible. Two such amps will sound exactly the same in blind tests. This is old hat in the hi-fi world. We don't know where we are at in the bass world, because amp makers don't stick to consistent rating methods.

Yet, coloration is always present in bass amps, because all amps eventually start clipping in some way or another. With a hi-fi system, you can ensure that clipping will never occur. But in the heat of battle, any moderately powered bass amp will eventually get pushed to the limit.

Thus, a specialized consideration in bass amps, is how they respond to overload signals where coloration is physically unavoidable. Management of the transition from uncolored to colored sound at high volumes may be an important consideration in how well a supposedly transparent amp actually sounds.
 
#59
fdeck said:
This is true, but there are some subtleties. It is possible to reduce colorations to the point where they are inaudible. Two such amps will sound exactly the same in blind tests. This is old hat in the hi-fi world. We don't know where we are at in the bass world, because amp makers don't stick to consistent rating methods.

Yet, coloration is always present in bass amps, because all amps eventually start clipping in some way or another. With a hi-fi system, you can ensure that clipping will never occur. But in the heat of battle, any moderately powered bass amp will eventually get pushed to the limit.

Thus, a specialized consideration in bass amps, is how they respond to overload signals where coloration is physically unavoidable. Management of the transition from uncolored to colored sound at high volumes may be an important consideration in how well a supposedly transparent amp actually sounds.
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It may be possible to reduce amplifier colouration to the point where they are inaudible (though I'm not convinced this is truly the case), but it isn't possible to reduce speaker colouration to that point. Long story short: Speakers are terribly inefficient and not very linear devices, especially when you start putting large amounts of power into them. In pretty much any system, the source of the most colouration is the speaker.
 

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