Strange Bridge Saddle Position After Intonation

[couchsofa]

So I did a proper setup and intonation on the fretless I build a few month ago and the saddle position I ended up with just seems a little weird.

E and A are right on where they should be and the D is a little farther back then I would expect. But the G is where the funny stuff is going on. I'm still a tiny bit off, but the saddle is as far up as it can go ... any idea why that might be the case?
My guess would be the very strong magnets I used to make the pickups but shouldn't the pull affect all strings in the same direction ...

 

[202dy]

In order of occurence:

1. Witness point(s) not set.
2. Improperly filed nut slot(s).
3. Improperly filed or damaged saddle slot(s).
4. False string(s).

 

[Lownote38]

That looks really strange on every string other than the "G". The E saddle should be pulled the furthest back traditionally, with each string after that (A, D, G) each being a bit more forward. I've never had a properly intonated bass bridge look like yours does. Do you have a good break angle at the nut (to the tuner) for each string?

 

[couchsofa]

Witness point(s) not set.

What do you mean by that, I do not understand.

Improperly filed nut slot(s).

Thought about that and it's a possibility. But could the difference in string length of the groove in the nut really cause such a dramatic influence?

Improperly filed or damaged saddle slot(s).

Nope, they look fine and the strings sit well.

False string(s).

They are as good as new, only been on there for about 3 weeks and removed once.
But I have another set, will check if that makes a difference! Thanks!

That looks really strange on every string other than the "G". The E saddle should be pulled the furthest back traditionally, with each string after that (A, D, G) each being a bit more forward. I've never had a properly intonated bass bridge look like yours does. Do you have a good break angle at the nut (to the tuner) for each string?

Now that you mention it, yeah totally had that wrong ... makes it even weirder The break angle is between 18,5° and 20° consistently on all strings, so I guess that's not an issue.

 

[202dy]

What do you mean by that, I do not understand.


Thought about that and it's a possibility. But could the difference in string length of the groove in the nut really cause such a dramatic influence?

Absolutely.

If the string is stopped elsewhere than the fingerboard side of the nut the scale length is effectively changed. This is a game of thousandths. A small change at the nut is all the saddle travel and then some on the screw at the bridge.

As far as witness points go, scroll down the page. There was at least one thread in the past week.

Nope, they look fine and the strings sit well.

Maybe. A burr, a little bit of uneveness, something that can't be easily seen can change things.

They are as good as new, only been on there for about 3 weeks and removed once.
But I have another set, will check if that makes a difference! Thanks!

False is false. Age is age. They are different and the same, sometimes together. Both can have a negative effect on intonation.

 

[megafiddle]

The D saddle is the one that's most seriously out of place.

It's position indicates that the stopped notes on that string
were too sharp for some reason. Assuming that you are
checking intonation at the 12th "fret", you might have a
low spot at that position, or a high spot a little beyond it.
That could cause the note to be stopped a little futher up
the board. This is assumming the string is good.

Exactly how are you checking intonation?
And is neck lined or unlined?

-

 

[mellowgerman]

I actually have an old classical guitar that I love, where I had to make a separate saddle for the high E string that sits in front of the bridge (probably 3/4" infront of all the others) with no obvious reason... the top of the guitar is flat, the bridge is straight, the neck is straight, the nut looks as it should... total mystery... but for some reason it's perfectly intonated with the wonky E saddle. This is also regardless of what strings I have on the guitar, so it wasn't due to bad set of strings in my case

 

[JustForSport]

Re: "If the string is stopped elsewhere than the fingerboard side of the nut the scale length is effectively changed. This is a game of thousandths. A small change at the nut is all the saddle travel and then some on the screw at the bridge."

A played string's length is from the saddle to the nut (or fret, or stop), not the other way around:
the usual length (for the E or B string) is a little longer from the 12th fret to the saddle than from 1/2 the scale length (nut to 12th fret).
The G string saddle should be very near scale length from the body side of the nut, and each larger string's saddle about that string's width farther back, progressively.
An exception would be a tapered or bare cored string, which usually intonates at a shorter distance that non-tapered.

 

[couchsofa]

Exactly how are you checking intonation?

Tuned the open string, played 12th harmonic and checked it played "fretted". Then adjusted the saddle and repeat.

And is neck lined or unlined?

Going to add lines later next week so I've added scribe marks on the neck between the strings where the fret slots will be cut.

Assuming that you are
checking intonation at the 12th "fret", you might have a
low spot at that position, or a high spot a little beyond it.

Hmm, something I haven't thought about yet. Just checked the rest of the fingerboard and it's in tune. Guess intonating on a low/high spot would screw up the tuning on the rest of the fb.

 

[Stick_Player]

It's fretless. Shouldn't matter. Just play it in tune. Ever looked at the bridge on a Double Bass?

 

[megafiddle]

Yes, a low/high spot would screw up the tuning on the rest of the fb.
But if the rest is in tune, then that is not the problem.

How are you checking the rest of the fb without lines?
Or did you scribe all of the lines on the fb?

-

 

[couchsofa]

It's fretless. Shouldn't matter. Just play it in tune.

It's what I did until I decided to add fretlines

How are you checking the rest of the fb without lines?
Or did you scribe all of the lines on the fb?

Yes, I scribed all lines. And checked against the harmonics and numerically with a caliper and ruler.

 

[Stick_Player]

I scribed all lines. And checked against the harmonics and numerically with a caliper and ruler.

The only harmonics that are in tune with the Equal Temperament system are the Octaves - open (1), first octave (2), second octave (4), third octave (8), etc.

Every other harmonic will only be in tune, with reference to Just Intonation. So checking the 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 17th, etc harmonics, are NOT useful to draw lines, to - unless you only want to play in ONE key center.

F#, in the key of G, is NOT the same as a Gb, in the key of Db, when played on instrument playing in Just Intonation.

This is why I said to just play it in tune, to whatever your reference is - such as an in-tune piano (equal tempered), or a group of seasoned singers (just intonation).

Frets or fretlines are theoretically 100 cents a part (Equal Temperament). On a fretless instruments, these distances are NOT 100 cents apart.

 

[ArvindJayaram]

I had an issue like this with one of my guitars once. It happened on account of a dead string. Try with a fresh string and the saddle in a different position, then rework the intonation. I'm confident it'll be more or less in line.

That said, if it works, it works. No one will be able to judge how it looks on stage, only how it sounds.

 

[couchsofa]

Looked up witness points and they were set. Changed the strings and the intonation stayed the same.
Yeah, it is a fretless and the fretlines are only for orientation since I found that I'm a visual player for the most part. Playing in tune is something I'm not capable of quite yet, still need to do a lot of ear training and I find that the fretless is great for that.
Considering the bridge saddles, yeah it works and it's not an issue of playability. But the strange positions made me think that something might be wrong and with the uneven fingerboard, dead strings and witness points ruled out I'm pretty sure that I screwed up the nut. I filed down the slots to bring the strings down a bit and probably introduced some error there, so I will replace the nut next and see if that changes the intonation.

Thanks for the great replies so far, I was totally clueless and didn't know what to do. Now I have at least a vague idea

 

[202dy]

Looked up witness points and they were set. Changed the strings and the intonation stayed the same.
Yeah, it is a fretless and the fretlines are only for orientation since I found that I'm a visual player for the most part. Playing in tune is something I'm not capable of quite yet, still need to do a lot of ear training and I find that the fretless is great for that.
Considering the bridge saddles, yeah it works and it's not an issue of playability. But the strange positions made me think that something might be wrong and with the uneven fingerboard, dead strings and witness points ruled out I'm pretty sure that I screwed up the nut. I filed down the slots to bring the strings down a bit and probably introduced some error there, so I will replace the nut next and see if that changes the intonation.

Thanks for the great replies so far, I was totally clueless and didn't know what to do. Now I have at least a vague idea

You may be able to fix the nut. Rub a pencil in the offending slot. Tune, detune, retune, etc several times. Take the string out of the slot and observe the wear marks. Wherever the graphite is missing is the high spot. Refile with proper down angle toward peg head. Repeat as needed.

 

[iiipopes]

When you set the intonation, are you setting it with the dots on the edge of the fingerboard? If so, that is not the correct. Edge dots are between the 11th and 12th frets. Does your bass have line inserts where frets would otherwise be? If so, set the intonation with the lines.

I have never seen intonation set in that manner. That's not to say it isn't correct, it's just as posted above - intonation of the saddles usually results in a fairly even setback from G to E string. The only significant difference I have ever seen is when a set of strings has a G string with a larger core to tame twang, and then that saddle ends up being behind the D saddle, not in front, as the picture indicates.

 

[AltGrendel]

The only thing I can think of would be to measure from the nut to the 12th harmonic then see if the measurement from the bridge to the 12th harmonic is approximately the same.

Don't know if that would work.

 

[wvbass]

I must admit, I don't know what a "false string" is. Is that similar to false teeth?

I have seen saddles look a little weird after setting the intonation, but never quite like that. Usually the E is furthest back, the A is a little forward of that, the D a little forward of the A, and the G a little forward of the D. Sometimes, the D ends up being a little back from the D, close to where the A saddle is. I never worry about this; I just set it up so the bass plays in tune, and then I play the bass.