Strap Button Screw Pulled Out

[Rickett Customs]

Keep in mind that some body wood grain orientation is endgrain on the ends of the horns/back end of the body..........Not every body has a crossgrained area, where the strap button is located.

Then you wouldn't want an end-grain dowel but a cross-grain plug.

A lot more work when (done properly) the wood slivers/glue method is every bit as strong.

 

[202dy]

Doweling the hole is the proper (some might say "deluxe") way to perform this repair. Employing a dowel still exposes long grain to the screw threads, which is what caused the problem in the first place. Better than doweling is cutting a plug. A clean hole is counter-bored in the existing hole and the plug is installed. Then the dowel or plug is bored to the proper dimensions to accept a properly lubed screw.

Toothpicks and wood glue seem to be the standard recommendation on H,S,&T. This method is problematic on several fronts. Toothpicks still expose long grain to the screw threads. Worse yet, instead of the threads engaging the hole in 360 degrees, the toothpicks offer a less secure hold than the original installation.

There is another pitfall for aspiring techs. Often the advise given is to "stuff it full of toothpicks and glue..." and install the screw. This is ill-advised. When the water in the glue hits the toothpicks they expand. Too many toothpicks and a lot of glue will split the upper horn of the guitar body.

Filling the hole with goop, no matter what the properties are, is not the way to perform this repair. Imagine paying a tech to perform this repair and they filled it with some kind of akempucky. While it doesn't make for happy customers it can certainly do irreparable damage to a tech's reputation.

Using JB Weld is just amateur hour.

 

[deshi00]

had this happen to me... Mine ripped out pretty bad.. Filled surrounding area with would filler and put a bigger longer screw down in there. No problems since.. although that bass doesnt get played that often anymore.

 

[96tbird]

Picks and glue is for the guy at home that NEVER wants his button to fail again and doesn't want to pay a luthier for a ridiculously easy repair.. If he is a home woodworker, plugging is fantastic. It is understood that a luthier would go the extra steps to protect his reputation and to hold himself out as an expert. The fact remains it is not necessary to enlist and pay someone x dollars when you can do it at home for pennies. An expert should recognize that this is true and as well recognize that wood glue is an extremely strong repair when cured. For a pro to deny this exhibits bias to his desire to extract dollars from potential customers.
This forum is to assist players with things they can accomplish themselves or steer them away from disaster. It is not a place for pros to come in and cry 'get thee to a luthier (me)'. Some measure of DIY is allowable as long as the proper materials and time proven methods are given and approved by a majority of DIY'ers.

As for glue strength, what holds an acoustic guitar bridge in place? Glue. Be it hide or wood glue.

Wood filler is just not acceptable even though it may have worked as noted above. Make a ball of it and bash it with a hammer, you'll see how strong it is. Likewise Make a wad of dried wood glue and bash it; the effort to destroy it far exceeds the effort to destroy a similar sized sample of any hardwood species.

 

[Rickett Customs]

Picks and glue is for the guy at home that NEVER wants his button to fail again and doesn't want to pay a luthier for a ridiculously easy repair..

That's correct, we all have this choice

The fact remains it is not necessary to enlist and pay someone x dollars when you can do it at home for pennies. An expert should recognize that this is true and as well recognize that wood glue is an extremely strong repair when cured.

I without a doubt do not deny this
Not everyone needs to deem this necessary.

For a pro to deny this exhibits bias to his desire to extract dollars from potential customers.

There is an "IMO, IME" in my original post, I do not deny that folks use toothpicks and glue and some have success with it. I do not "need" or have a "desire" to extract money from anyone

This forum is to assist players with things they can accomplish themselves or steer them away from disaster. It is not a place for pros to come in and cry 'get thee to a luthier (me)'. Some measure of DIY is allowable as long as the proper materials and time proven methods are given and approved by a majority of DIY'ers.

Did I ask anyone to send me an instrument for repair?

As for glue strength, what holds an acoustic guitar bridge in place? Glue. Be it hide or wood glue.

The only thing that may be misconstrued here is that the bridge is one piece of wood that has alot more area to fix it to an acoustic top, apples and oranges. For anyone that does not know what toothpicks are made of, they are birch, same goes with Popsicle sticks

 

[96tbird]

A bridge supports what, at least 100 lbs of tension? What does a button screw support? A fraction and with significant mechanical advantage. The example given was to illustrate the inherant strength of glue.

Birch is extremely tough flexible wood. Tensile strength exceeds oak, taking a nearly full 25% more force to tear it: Link Removed

If I need a luthier, I'll find one that knows more about wood.

 

[202dy]

It is doubtful that any pro on this board will attack the "toothpick method" as being structurally unsound. It is functional. There is a ton of anecdotal evidence that supports the "toothpick strap button repair" as a viable solution. Inelegant and risky in the wrong hands, many have used this repair and been perfectly happy with the results. However, only the woefully uninformed would accept this as an adequate repair from a pro.

Which begs the question: Why is the lesser method defended so tirelessly by the same folks who would tar and feather a pro for using it? It is supposed that these folks are trying to save a few dollars by using a "down and dirty" method. Which might be o.k. for an inexpensive instrument, but is it the solution they really want to use on a pro instrument?

As far as a desire to extract dollars from potential customers, that is what business people do. Except, it is not called extraction, it is called trade. The service is performed for the client who trade their dollars for it. When did earning a living (Techs do not get rich. They merely earn a living.) become a bad thing?

 

[96tbird]

I put on a strap lock months ago and this past weekend the part that was connected to the bass pulled out -- right in the middle of a song, of course! I do not know how to repair this. The only idea I have is to drill out the hole large enough to fit a dowel, glue the dowel in place, then drill a pilot hole and reattach the strap lock. As you can see from the picture, I do not have a lot of room to work with.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Michael

Note the OP asking for DIY help. If he didnt want to see if it's something he could tackle, he wouldn't have asked.

 

[Rickett Customs]

I wouldn't completely bank on that link, tensile is not the only measurement, when it comes to wood..also, how big was this test piece, in this controlled environment? variables.

Go ahead and find who you want to find, no sweat off my back.....we all know someone who knows more about wood than us

Birch is extremely tough flexible wood. Tensile strength exceeds oak, taking a nearly full 25% more force to tear it: Link Removed

If I need a luthier, I'll find one that knows more about wood.

 

[96tbird]

You implied that birch is weak.

 

[Rickett Customs]

No I didn't. You assumed about as much as I implied

You implied that birch is weak.

 

[96tbird]

You compared it to popsicle sticks, what else am I to assume? I guess I went way out on that limb. You got me.

I'll take plenty of stock in the link provided as it is actual engineering data.

oak vs. birch vs alder: note the compressive yield strength and flexural yield strength.
Link Removed

 

[96tbird]

I wouldn't completely bank on that link, tensile is not the only measurement, when it comes to wood..also, how big was this test piece, in this controlled environment? variables.

Engineering standard testing. if you click on the source material for the data displayed it takes you here:
http://www.matweb.com/

 

[Rickett Customs]

Sorry, I must be slightly daft, but every time I try to run a comparison, takes me back to the page where your link is here.

Engineering standard testing. if you click on the source material for the data displayed it takes you here:
http://www.matweb.com/

 

[michaelkoss]

Fixed! Thanks, everyone!

 

[walterw]

fixed how?

you must tell us, we're in the midst of a big fight over a trivial detail!

 

[Expat_PM]

Used to work in a cabinet factory (factory not shop). We stress tested wood glues routinely and proved repeatedly that a) cheap Elmers glue was every bit as strong and durable as Titebond and b) the glue (whatever brand of white glue) was inevitably stronger than the surrounding wood. When we glued up panels, let them set and then broke them again to determine a lot of quality factors about the wood, the glue, the joint, etc we found that the wood grain broke somewhere other than where it was glued - Elmers or Titebond will do nicely and it will be even stronger than the wood of the rest of the guitar.

Take sage advice from us old guys who know from much experience, toothpicks (or very small dowels, or any slivers of wood) and plain old white glue will hold it VERY well.

 

[Ric5]

look at the end of Lemmy's bass here --->>> Link Removed

 

[walterw]

Toothpicks and wood glue seem to be the standard recommendation on H,S,&T. This method is problematic on several fronts. Toothpicks still expose long grain to the screw threads. Worse yet, instead of the threads engaging the hole in 360 degrees, the toothpicks offer a less secure hold than the original installation.

not at all, actually; the toothpicks may themselves be long grain, but slathering them and the hole itself with wood glue, then cranking the screw in does the following:

-forces the new glue-soaked wood to conform against the glue-soaked remnants of the old threads in the hole, making for a better "grip" than a smooth dowel slid into a smooth drilled-out hole

-forces the metal screw threads into the other side of the hole, also creating a firm grip

-all this compressed (in other words, clamped) glue-soaked wood dries "cast" into the shape of the screw threads, creating a nice strong "composite" to hold the screw

There is another pitfall for aspiring techs. Often the advise given is to "stuff it full of toothpicks and glue..." and install the screw. This is ill-advised. When the water in the glue hits the toothpicks they expand. Too many toothpicks and a lot of glue will split the upper horn of the guitar body.

it would take some work to stuff the hole tight enough to split the body! it's possible, but i have to think a minimum of mechanical "sense" would tell you not to go that far.

Filling the hole with goop, no matter what the properties are, is not the way to perform this repair. Imagine paying a tech to perform this repair and they filled it with some kind of akempucky. While it doesn't make for happy customers it can certainly do irreparable damage to a tech's reputation.

+1 wood filler is an utter fail

Using JB Weld is just amateur hour.

i guess it's probably strong enough, but what a messy, risky, time-consuming hassle!

i take that back, i don't know how well it sticks to wood, it may not even be all that strong.

 

[michaelkoss]

I filled the hole with plain-ole wood glue, stuck three toothpicks in the hole, cleaned up the excess glue, then used wire cutters to snip the toothpicks even with the body. I did that last night and let the glue set until I got home tonight. Then I went to Ace Hardware and got a rubber washer to replace the felt one per one of the recommendations. Then I simply screwed in the button. Certainly not worth a fight.

Thank you for everyone's input and kind intentions of helping me. I really do appreciate it. I'm back to rocking and we should all be happy about that!