Double Bass String Length/Neck Stop ??

[Matthew Tucker]

Also, I meant 'kill' your hand not 'kiss' your hand.

Oh, pity. I was enjoying some lovely mental images of KS in the orchestra pit smooching away in first position ...

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Oh, pity. I was enjoying some lovely mental images of KS in the orchestra pit smooching away in first position ...

Smooching away in first position? No Matt, we call that first Base!

 

[Matthew Tucker]

I was actually going to mention something about KS fingering his extension, but decided that would be going a bit far ...

 

[drurb]

What is your favorite String length and why?

The average is 41" - 42" but many Basses fall under and over especially older Basses and some smaller ones.

Also, what is your favorite Neck/Heel stop, D or Eb?

Moving the Bridge up or down by the F-notch area does affect this stop as well.

I am most comfortable with 41.5" to 41.75", just as you are, Ken. As to why, I guess it's because that's what I'm used to and it fits my hands. We also agree on the a preference for a medium to thick neck. Thinner necks also cause me fatigue. As to the D or Eb neck, I have a strong preference for a D neck. Again, I think it's because I've always had one. Aiming for the D right there in the pocket is so ingrained for me, I figure I'd make a mess of playing an Eb neck.

 

[bankerwithabass]

Ok now I feel like an idiot. After saying above that I had an Eb neck I discovered as I was practicing last night to my amazement, that I actually have a D neck. When I bought the bass I checked it and somehow fooled myself into thinking it was Eb. Must have been a senior moment at 60. Maybe it was the position and how I was holding my hand when I checked?

And no wonder that I have felt out of sorts with my new bass of a week not being able to play in tune. I guess I do rely more on the visual of the finger board when I place my fingers than I thought.

I'm sure I will be fine but now it's a whole new game of discovery and almost immediatlly I am playing more in tune if that makes any sense. I do notice a general feeling of the shorter scale although 1 1/4" difference over the 40 some inches I wouldn't think would make that big of a difference. Maybe it's a mental thing. My new bass is 40 3/4" scale and my old one is 41 1/2 with an Eb neck.

So for whatever that's worth to anyone.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

My newly restored English Hart Bass has an Eb-neck but with a very low heel. If the Bass had a larger Heel, it could also be a D-Neck with the same exact String Length. If you have a big Heel, it might just be tall enough to be cut lower to have an Eb-neck. You can't change an Eb to a D though unless you fit a false Nut or mess the the bridge position.

Here is my Eb. Also, look how long the Neck looks as well (41 3/4" string length);

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Here it looks almost as if the Back goes right into the Neck Heel without the normal sized Button and has only a tiny Button for what ever reason;

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With the Eb-Neck it seems much easier to play the F# when shifting up or down. I just have to get used to where the D is and the rest of the 3rd position..lol

 

[robobass]

Man, I wish I could play some of those basses Ken has!
As for string length, I think that sometimes longer scale can be an advantage, or at least not a disadvantage. A bass I played for many years was 43-1/4, but had wonderfully soft action, so most people could pick it up and play it in tune, and never really notice the scale. If I had tried to shorten it I bet I would have lost a lot of sound, and this would have made it into like a "C" neck! When I was practicing solo Bach or Mozart 40, of course there were issues, but I still got the job done. I think you can do a lot with a longer string length bass if you really have the action optimized.
Some basses can be shortened and some can't. These basses aren't going to go away, so someone has to play them!
Robobass

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Man, I wish I could play some of those basses Ken has!
As for string length, I think that sometimes longer scale can be an advantage, or at least not a disadvantage. A bass I played for many years was 43-1/4, but had wonderfully soft action, so most people could pick it up and play it in tune, and never really notice the scale. If I had tried to shorten it I bet I would have lost a lot of sound, and this would have made it into like a "C" neck! When I was practicing solo Bach or Mozart 40, of course there were issues, but I still got the job done. I think you can do a lot with a longer string length bass if you really have the action optimized.
Some basses can be shortened and some can't. These basses aren't going to go away, so someone has to play them!
Robobass

Many many many old Basses have been cut down to be made shorter and easier to play. This has been going on for well over 100-150 years and more. The other way is to lower the neck block and cut the area at the top without re-shaping the shoulders. This is called a Block-cut. Both my Morelli and Prescott were longer Basses when I got them and both were shortened beautifully and now much more playable and marketable as well.

My Mystery Bass is currently under the knife and will be shortened in the process this way. Also, my Cornerless Bass (attr. Storioni) is over 44" and will end up under 42" when done. That Bass is more of a full 3/4 Bass with some oddities in the making and former necking. This will all be corrected and made playable as well.

The Morelli was an Eb neck as we did not do a graft to correct it otherwise we would have done even better with the length. All other were brought down or will be brought down to 42" or less.

The Cornerless and Mystery Bass will be Eb necks as we need to make smaller Heels to achieve the desired string length besides the block-cuts to be performed.

Robo wants to play some of these Basses? First off, don't come in wearing a name tag with that name..lol

Second, these Basses get spread around and are often sold before long so an early viewing is recommended. The Hart for instance already has an offer in the UK but I will play it for a few months first to warm it up a bit. The Gilkes (Hart's Master, for real) also has an admirer but time will tell.

Hey, my house cost more than just about every Bass I have so what's the problem?

 

[bassdogEmer]

Hi Ken,
Thanks for starting this ineresting thread. I have a string length question for ya.
I have found a bass I like and want to buy. It's a pre-wwII (estimated to be built around 1910-1920) Czeck Flatback. It has a super dark sound and is a really quick playing intrument - huge thump as well.
So - here is the deal. It's a 3/4 but def. on the smaller side of 3/4 basses. The string length is ..get ready....40 and 1/4.
I am used anywhere between 41 1/4 to 42 inches. I have been playing this bass for three weeks and I do find the string length pretty short-but workable. It's really most hard in upper thumb postion. now here is the catch- for some reason it has a pretty sh*tty rosewood fingerboard on it. Despite this it sounds great - but if I buy it I will def. have a nice ebony baord installed. I know the harder ebony will aid the tone and sustain and maybe even brighten her up a bit. here are my questions: and keep in mind the neck has already been reset, a new bass bar installed and the nut isn't long in order to shorten the string length.
so my questions:
1) any reason why not to buy an instrument with a this short of a string length?
2) since I will put a new board on it - I could have the neck raised a tad to lengthen the string length right?
3)any other ways to lengthen string length - any serious reasons why NOT to?
4) can I expect even better sound with an Ebony board - better palyability I am figuring right?
5) any other opinions or observations are most welcome.
the only thing holding me up is the short string length.
oh also - maybe this is relevant - it's a D neck - I dont mind Eb necks but prefer D neck if I have my choice
what do you think?
any other luthiers please chime in as well - but I am sure Ken will have some good insight to add
thank you in advance for your help.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

5) any other opinions or observations are most welcome.

OK.

First, I predict that Ken will explain how neither it nor your Czech Flatback circa 1890 can be a Czech bass, since Czechoslovakia just didn't exist until after the war

I think that if it has a super dark sound and easy to play, then obviously the shorter string length isn't really a problem, is it?

And FWIW, even a old rosewood fingerboard can be worked upon to improve the surface and scoop for playability. I know this because I restored a bass with a rosewood fb and had the choice of replacing it with an ebony one. That was my first instinct. But I was able to strip, shoot and re-dress the rosewood board very successfully, and properly finished it is virtually indistinguishable from an ebony board. And there was nothing wrong with it, really. So ... I put the rosewood board back on. Whether you can do same depends on what your board is like though.

But you can't really increase string length by replacing the fingerboard. You'd need to reset the neck for that.

{postscript: are you SURE it's a 40 1/4" string length? Is the bridge in the right position??}

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Working 'out of order' here.. (as usual..lol) On the Czech thing, didn't the country get its name from Czech and Slovokia combined?

I am not at all an international history buff but just vaguely thru Basses and Violins. On the date, I don't know how much Bass building went one during World War I. Do you? My Martini is labeled and dated 1919 so I am sure some making was going on but that was down in Italy. Between Germany and Russia is where I am wondering as that's where this Bass probably came from.

Ok, questions.. 40 1/4"? Not a problem if that's what you like.

Change the String length? Not always so easy to make it longer. A pitched shim under the Neck pulling it back or re-pitching the lower heel (that's if this is NOT a Blockless Bass) might get you 1/4"-1/2" more. If it is a d-neck and this is a valuable Bass, a longer neck-graft with a similar heel with an Eb stop would get you over 41" in total. Ebony Fingerboard? Sure, why not? It's the modern standard but wasn't 100 years ago!

I don't' know the Bass you are talking about without pictures. Then I can maybe access the condition, value b4 and after repairs/modifications, how much repairs might cost (in my world) and the total value when all is said and done.

Why to buy a specific Bass? Well, it must fit you and your specific needs unless it's an investment purchase and It must not cost more to buy and fix combined than it will be worth afterwards. Also, make sure the work is done correctly and professionally or the so called improvements might actually devalue the Bass.

Pics, measurements and details please?

Personally, I would love to own a nice original old handmade Bohemian Bass and/or a Viennese classic. The real good ones rarely leave home! I doubt the old Vienna Philharmonic or the Czech Republic National Symphony Orchestra used many Italian or English Basses a hundred years ago or more. I don't know much about these orchestras and the history but I do suspect that Eastern European Orchestra most likely played on domestic instruments for the most part.

 

[bassdogEmer]

Hey Ken,
here a few pics. The talk bass site wont allow me to upload all 4 pics in this response so look directly below and I will post the other two. I dont know what Mathew was saying about 1890 - this bass is reported to have been made before wwII and sometime bewtween 1910 and 1920. Czech or that area - flatback. It's not a Bohemian has a normal neckblock - or is not a blockless wonder. so Ken take a look at the pics and tell me what you think. The bass will run me around 5500 most likely. plus prolly another 750 to have an ebony board put on. I know I would have to add a shim under the neck to get another 1/4 inch out of the length. just wondering if there are any structural reasons why NOT to do this or potential sound reasons - I thought lengthening the string would only improve on the sound because it lengthens the the amount the string can vibrate. Oh also to respond to what Mathew said - the rosewood board sucks. It's soft and it just feels kinda sh*tty. not good for pizz playing at all. The bridge is in the right place. the bass was recently overhauled by my NY luthier. It got a new bass bar, top was off and everything fixed properely and the neck was extended out. so sans the rosewood board it's in perfect health.
also - in your opinion Ken what will adding the ebony board do to the basses overall sound?

 

[bassdogEmer]

Hey Ken here are the rest of the pics - sorry this is the best I could do with my camera phone on a dark rainy NY day with no sunlight.
Also I should mention - that the varnish on the instrument was def. screwed up - or redone very poorely - so i know this affects the value - to me it's more cosmetic

so here are the rest of the pics

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Lengthening might make it slightly deeper sounding. I think also having a minimum of 35-38mm neck-stand would help the sound as well. When they moved the Neck before would have been the best and least expensive time to do the pitching. Now the Neck has to come out again, the pitched shim made and glued to the bottom of the Neck Heel as well as the Button area of the Neck re-done to match the Pitch and fit flush with the Back.

The Ebony Board will darken the sound slightly. With the costs you mention you will have a Bass costing over 7k when complete depending on the costs. A new Bridge might be needed as well at that point depending on the pitch job.

Shop around NY and see what similar type/vintage/condition/sounding Basses are selling for. You want this to cost you 60% of that estimated selling price at most. The net received in a sale by the owner is less commission and less and counter offers for a lower price. Most Basses sell for less that the asking price. Hence as an example, a Bass selling for 10k, after counter offers and less commission to the shop you might net 6k.

Work with numbers like these to make sure you don't over spend or over pay. If you have a valuable pedigree type Bass then it's easier to spend as waiting out the price inflation always helps because these Basses only go up in value.

On the Bohemian name, this IS Czech territory. I believe Prague was the capitol if not mistaken or at least the center of Bohemia.

The blockless thing was done there, the Tyrol (Tirol) and even in New Hampshire! Oh, even England made blockless violins. I have seen the pictures.

 

[bassdogEmer]

Ok - thanks Ken - I like the way the way this paticular bass sounds - but just curious - do you have ballpark estimate as to what this bass is worth?

 

[Matthew Tucker]

I dont know what Mathew was saying about 1890 -

only that your profile says

"Location:
NYC
Current Setup:
Czech Flatback circa 1890."

 

[bassdogEmer]

Oh i see - it's a different bass - i currently have two basses. that make sense

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Ok - thanks Ken - I like the way the way this paticular bass sounds - but just curious - do you have ballpark estimate as to what this bass is worth?

Value as I mentioned before above is what a similar Bass will actually sell for.

Shop around NY and see what similar type/vintage/condition/sounding Basses are selling for.

 

[bassdogEmer]

Thanks Ken for the advice. I have settled on the other bass I was looking at and I purchased it - also a Czeck Flatback
here the pics - sound was the main reason but also this bass was older (pre wwI) it has a huge dark sound and a 41 and 3/4 stringth which is perfect for me - and the varnish all orginal - i also got it for a steel. I wont say how much but well under 6k. here the pics

 

[bassdogEmer]

here the rest of the pics