Double Bass Strings and Pizz direction -- a difference in tone???

[Don Hergert]

Given that I'm running an unusual DB rig and that I've only played with a few different types of low tension synthetic strings...

Especially since incorporating my RH thumb into my pizz toolbox, I've noticed that my E and A strings sound very different when I pizz stroke them toward the G side of the DB than they sound when I pizz stroke them toward the E side of the DB. I actually had noticed this before I started using my thumb, even with different kinds of strings, but at that time I had not even imagined that I'd ever be routinely doing pizz strokes toward the G side. Now I do. I have found that the nature of the stroke -- the way I address the string -- does make a difference, but I'm still left wondering if there's something about the build or design of the strings, or maybe the setup of my DB.

Transparency: I've noticed this with Innovation SilverSlaps, Aquila Sugar Slaps, SBW Deluxe "Dirty Guts" and some regular whackers that came with my DB almsot 8 years ago.

So, the question -- do especially the E and A strings have a preference for pizz strokes toward the E side of the DB? Please try pizz strokes toward the G side on your own DB and let us know, and also please let us know the kind of strings that you've tested this with.

Bonus points if you have an idea of why this happens!!! ( 'Cause I don't )

Thank you in advance.

-- Don

 

[michael_t]

Wrong subforum. I've just asked the moderator to move this to the Double Bass side.

 

[Don Hergert]

Thank you!!!! It has been done.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

I think it has mainly something to do with that you stroke the string differently with your thumb than you pull it with your other fingers.

 

[Energy]

Bonus points if you have an idea of why this happens!!! ( 'Cause I don't )

Congratulations Don, you just found out that the sound is in your fingers!
Just kidding.
No, really.
The way you're playing affects the sound much more than anything else involved.

 

[neddyrow]

any chance you can share a video of your right hand showing how you are hitting the string from both sides?

curious of this strategy...i've tried using my thumb in certain situations and would like to see how you are using it and what sound you are getting.

I use Evah mediums as I like the higher tension over the weich. just switched back from the copper wrapped Aquila strings. Similar tension but prefer the tone of the Evahs for my E/A

 

[ole Jason]

I think it's just due to the physical difference in how the string is plucked with the thumb versus being pulled with the index/middle. If you were to pluck with your pinky in the usual direction it will also sound different in its own way.

 

[Don Hergert]

Here's an early e

any chance you can share a video of your right hand showing how you are hitting the string from both sides?

curious of this strategy...i've tried using my thumb in certain situations and would like to see how you are using it and what sound you are getting.

I use Evah mediums as I like the higher tension over the weich. just switched back from the copper wrapped Aquila strings. Similar tension but prefer the tone of the Evahs for my E/A

Here's a vid I did a couple of weeks ago when I had just solidified my RH thumb/index alternating method... Note that while I'm playing high on the fingerboard in this vid, I can play lower, like within 6 inches from the end of the fingerboard. There is a tone difference up high, but I sort of like it there for variety during a solo break. FWIW, speed, accuracy and touch have improved since this recording.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

It's up to you how you play, but you limit the possible range of notes when you pluck up that high and loose attack. The double bass is not a guitar (unless you play it horizontally on your leg when sitting).
Holding the RH finger perpendicular to the strings and plucking with the tips only is also not a good technique for DB but acceptable for faster passages.
The RH fingers should point down more or less parallel to the strings and close to the end of the fingerboard. The RH thumb should reside at the right edge of the fingerboard. The edge might need to be softened around the position of the thumb.

And using the left hand thumb on the E string is also a bad habit coming from guitar. (Possibly also a bad habit on guitar.)

 

[Don Hergert]

I appreciate your input.

Sort of off topic, but I can put my index and middle fingers together, parallel to the strings, and stroke strings together that way, but my middle finger by itself cannot stroke the A and E strings when alternating with the index finger, due to stiffness from RA (as do other RH fingers). So if I want alternate fingering, which I do, it has to be with the thumb and index, which honestly is working really quite decently for me by now. Similarly related to range of notes, I slap too, and in the same areas where I do thumb-index alternate fingering, which as mentioned earlier can go down to about 6 inches from the end of the fingerboard... So I'm really not worrying about LH playing the higher registers in thumb position. There are other reasons I went this direction too, but for now let's just say thumb-index is the way I do RH alternate fingering, and that that really isn't what this thread is about.

Just to get back on track, I'm really wondering if strings, or some strings, have a preference for being stroked toward the E side of the double bass, or if that is a setup related thing. Has anyone else experimented with this?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

With the thumb you pluck a bit away from the fingerboard, with the other fingers it might be more towards the fingerboard.
The thumb also has a wider plucking point which softens the sound more than a smaller plucking point from a different finger.
You can put more force into the thumb plucking than any other finger.

 

[fdeck]

Sort of off topic, but I can put my index and middle fingers together, parallel to the strings, and stroke strings together that way,...

This is from The Evolving Bassist. It's how I've played for 40+ years. Lately I've been working on the more widely favored "side finger" technique, as a way to rest my joints if necessary. Rufus Reid shows both techniques in his book, and gave them equal standing, so maybe I was influenced by that, and by playing electric bass for 4 years before switching to upright. I can switch to alternating fingers, but I only need to for fast passages and soloing.

Within the last few years, I've worked on loosening up my wrist. @Chris Fitzgerald has a great video showing right hand pizz technique, and I've found that his wrist motion is equally applicable to 2-finger playing.

How my tone quality differs is still an open question because I haven't given it enough time. I notice a difference between index finger and middle finger. Plucking with the side of my middle finger produces a noticeably twangy sound that I'd have to overcome before this becomes a useful tool in my bag. It might have to do with the callouses that are already there. Or I need to slow down and figure out what's really happening.

I've passed the age where I feel that I need to be as loud as possible, and that's helped a lot with keeping my finger joints healthy. Sure, it's fun to dig in, but I want to keep playing for at least another decade if not more.

 

[Don Hergert]

... I've passed the age where I feel that I need to be as loud as possible, and that's helped a lot with keeping my finger joints healthy. Sure, it's fun to dig in, but I want to keep playing for at least another decade if not more.

I noticed the tone difference right away... My index finger is still pulling strings to the E side, so to a large extent the tone is similar -- my index finger still approaches the string very similarly to the way it did when playing more parallel to the string, even though it approaches more perpendicular to the string. But the thumb, yea, it's pushing the string to the G side, plus it had to get callused and also had to learn how best to awaken the note. It's been about a month now and a lot of that adjustment has happened, plus my thumb is totally callused now.

I have noticed over the last few years that my RH gets fatigued and shaky after a long session playing RH index/middle together parallel to the strings. I can really dig in with it, but it's at a cost. I've been playing with my thumb-index method for some similarly long sessions over the last month, and as yet I have not noticed any fatigue or shakiness; the supporting wrist movements in particular seem much more natural for me and my hand feels more relaxed with it.

Interestingly, my LH is getting a lot of exercise, technique polishing. It now has to keep up with the RH playing much faster. I'm even more happy than ever that I moved to Simandl LH posture over a year ago, and that also was due to RA.

When I first started DB in 2018 I was 63, and that was before my RA started hitting. I enjoyed between 3 and 5 more years playing DB, banjo, mandolin and Dobro before noticing my finger joints were really having trouble. Since then, thankfully, I've been able to keep playing everything, but in order to do so I've had to make a lot of changes to my playing styles with each instrument. And we're still getting called for gigs, so things seem to still be working.

The point though, is that if it's important enough, a person is willing to innovate, to make changes. The hands have tremendous redundancy built into them if we just look for ways to use what is available. For me now at 70, this time of innovation and change has been extremely exciting, sort of re-awakening my interest in making music in general. I hope the same happens for anyone who finds themselves surprised at what happens as age comes into play.

 

[jj.833]

I generally recognize two ways of pluck:
1) "jazz pluck" which I use almost always: pluck along the meat of the finger - towards E, close to the end of fingerboard, using the weight of whole hand = plucking by the movement of elbow rather than moving the fingers. Finger(s) are just hooks. Strong attack and rich overtones. I believe you would find much in videos by @Chris Fitzgerald .
2) "orchestral pizz" fingers more or less perpendicular to the strings, plucking further from the bridge, aiming to sound "noble", not to get too much attack and not much highs... think of playing in section and trying to blend with other strings. I use it in some bigband playing also, in more orchestral, rubato passages.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The only time I use my thumb to pluck is when playing double stop shell voicings, usually 10ths or 7ths. When I do, for consistency of sound, I use a double rest stroke where the finger snaps through the string down to the next string and the thumb snaps through the string up to the next string using a "turn the doorknob" motion. At least one of the shell voicing videos in my series has examples of this.

The technique @Don Hergert is using in the video he posted is totally different. It appears to be much lighter opposing free strokes. On the topic of the thread, it wouldn't surprise me if the two strokes sounded different. Not because of the direction of the stroke, but because of the differences in the size, shape, and mechanics of the two fingers involved. I know it took me many years to become even marginally satisfied with the sound of my middle finger stroke as compared to my index finger stroke. Now, on recordings, I can't tell which is which, but it was a long road to get there.

 

[Abington]

When do you use this technique? I can't imagine really getting enough volume out of this for it to be useful in a performance context. I'd probably rather play this tune with just one or two fingers with standard right hand technique and play fewer notes if I can't make the speed. Probably maximizing your string choice for this corner case isn't going to be the thing?

 

[Don Hergert]

When do you use this technique? I can't imagine really getting enough volume out of this for it to be useful in a performance context.

Keeping in mind I'm primarily in the bluegrass environment, thumb/index works nicely for solo up-tempo breaks but also sometimes for variety for lower-paced backup. Index/middle fingers together are fine for that kind of slower paced backup most of the time and I expect to continue to use them together as needed on into the future. Transition from one mode to the other is now easy and smooth so I have casual choices, plus I can throw in my light slap and even some occasional arco as desired. A nice toolbox addition.

As I continue working on thumb-index the volume and tone are now about the same as with index/middle together parallel to the strings, but it wasn't that way at first. As many good folks have suggested here, the volume and tone are in the touch; while my index finger picked up pretty quickly, my thumb had never stroked a DB string before so it has had a lot to learn. Finger strength and approach are maturing very nicely.

Bluegrass on stage is usually mic'ed, but amps/mics in a jam are intentionally rare. My DB is fitted with both a piezo system and a mounted mic, but they see little use except on stage. In almost all the jams I attend, people exercise especially sensitive volume control during other peoples' solo breaks, either not playing or playing soft backup. This includes for DB solo breaks.

For practice I'm putting an hour, or sometimes two lately, per day. I'm going through songs in our band's pretty large repertoire with the new thumb/index method to get used to the fit. I'm bringing thumb/index out to the public slowly, but it fits nicely and people seem to enjoy it.

At this point going on 5 weeks now the thumb and index fingers easily know where the strings are and how to approach the strings, Alternating is nearly unconscious. Improvising in familiar songs comes easy and fast. My left hand is catching up nicely.

I can't say this thumb-index alternating method is something everyone should do, but experimenting with it might be fun or interesting for some people. I've shown it to one very prolific double bassist who I know is trying it, and may even use more fingers than thumb/index with it. In my case, my RH thumb, index and pinky are the only fingers not stiff with RA, so I really don't have another way to do alternate fingering; as such I'm making it work and really enjoying it.

 

[jj.833]

I think the main reason most bass players pluck towards the E comes from gravity: you just let your elbow drop, and the hooked finger pulls the string with great force, obtaining a strong tone. Strong tone can have rich overtones, while the soft tone is always more bassy.

The reason we play with as long part of finger as possible, is because this way allows the string to oscillate in most modes it can (allowing for rich overtones = strong mids and articulate highs). Compare piano hammers - long and wooly - with tiny harpsichord 'plectrums', and compare both instruments possibilities of dynamics, and how the dynamics affects the colour palette.

However, in many styles we usually want steady tone anyway, so I can imagine your method might work nicely. Especially if you play amplified, where you can adjust your tone and dynamics electronically.

I also think that these gut-like strings work as natural compressors and mids adjusters, which might solve some dynamic issues. All in all, your method might work, and I wish you good luck.

 

[jj.833]

Perhaps, a bit carefully, you might also find some useful information in bass guitar techniques.

The first bass guitars were played with thumb towards the G, as you do now. It sounded more uprighty to the Fender's creators in the early 50s. (At the time, I believe they were using guitar amps, and steel upright strings.)

Soon however the players adapted the technique most used nowadays, plucking towards the E and against anchored thumb. This is originally a classical guitar technique. It allows for stronger tone (more overtones), better control of dynamics, and tighter rhythmic precision. However, many a player uses both these techniques nowadays, because they produce different sound and feel.

Other techniques developed later, for example playing along the meat of the finger further from the bridge, to obtain a sound similar to upright (as the bass guitarists believe).

Among these techniques, I think two might be interesting for upright:
Floating thumb (thumb is anchored on a string right below the string plucked by index or middle finger; thumb lies lightly on the string and jumps fast between the strings)
Free stroke (played with alternating thumb towards G and index towards E; the arm and hand don't move much, only the fingers do; the hand is almost in fist and the fingers move just a little).

I enjoy this topic, however my time is up

 

[DoubleMIDI]

…

The reason we play with as long part of finger as possible, is because this way allows the string to oscillate in most modes it can (allowing for rich overtones = strong mids and articulate highs). Compare piano hammers - long and wooly - with tiny harpsichord 'plectrums', and compare both instruments possibilities of dynamics, and how the dynamics affects the colour palette.

…

This is not correct.
The wide plucking by the parallel finger enables the player to pluck harder but most of the energy goes into the lower partials than plucking in (bass) guitar style.
A wide hammer suppresses or at least attenuates higher modes compared to a sharp hammer.
The same is with thinner strings that support higher partials better than thicker strings and harmonicity (closeness of partial frequencies to ideal harmonics) is also better with thinner strings.

Dynamics is something completely different, the only thing with sound is that a harder impact gets stronger higher partials. The higher dynamic range of a piano compared to a cembalo lies in the design of the excitation mechanism (hammer covered by lots of felt vs. plucked) and the robustness of the instrument.
The more the felt gets compressed by a hard impact the more energy is transferred to the center of the hammer as it gets harder there because of the hard wood behind the felt. That helps to make loud notes brighter.

If you would play on a cembalo as hard as on the piano something will get broken. Early pianofortes had a much more limited dynamic range than the modern piano. Nonetheless the dynamic range was bigger than on a cembalo.

But a better comparison would have been with a clavichord (or a clavinet as the amplified modern version) because the tangents act as hammers too. The dynamic limitation of the clavichord was due to the rising pitch when the key was depressed deeper (but which could be used for vibrato expression).