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Double Bass Student double bass versus non-student double bass

What level of student? In grades 5-12, the basses were all laminate. I played an old King and several Kays.

In small junior college I played a lower priced, fully carved bass. As an adult I would think of a student bass as something like a Shen SB200 or similar. Maybe a good hybrid would work. IMHO a laminate bass doesn't meet minimum standards for classical training.

I would expect students at prestigious music schools to have access to "fine" instruments.
 
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Aha, thanks. So it is much a subjective type of thing? I mean, in the world of 3/4 sized basses?

P.S., @Wasnex - I respect your opinion!
I consider laminate basses below student level, but I suppose it depends on how you define student. In this context I think of a "student" as someone who is pursuing college-level music study. Also a student level bass relates more to quality than a size, I.E. a student bass is appropriate for serious study, but not super expensive like a fine instrument. I generally consider student basses to be entry level carved. IMHO laminate is not appropriate at this level :sorry:.

AFAIK 5/8 basses are becoming more common and a smaller classical student may benefit from playing a 5/8. I would be very surprised to see a serious student on anything smaller, but there are probably exceptions.

All of the basses I played in primary school were 3/4 laminate. I started orchestra in 5th grade on viola. I believe I crossed to bass in 8th grade, so I was probably 13 or 14. A 3/4 instrument was still a bit big for me, but not untenable. I have seen very young/small students on 1/4 and 1/2 size basses, but AFAIK its fairly uncommon. AFAIK it's generally considered best to switch to a full size bass ASAP. I believe this is mostly about tone, volume, and projection.
 
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“Student” vs “pro” vs “fine”, etc. are marketing terms used to help justify the prices at which people try to sell certain instruments. You’re going to get different answers from different people on what levels certain instruments fall into, and they are context and genre dependent. Shens are often considered “student” basses - well I play a Shen, and I sometimes get paid to play it, so does that make my bass a “professional” bass? I mostly play jazz and pizz gigs, though. As @Wasnex mentioned, a serious classical player would likely be looking to upgrade from there at some point.
 
I was never aware of these distinctions prior to hanging in the DB forums. I have identified my own as 3/4 plywood,
no-name (sticker fell off). I think it had steel core strings on it flat wound. The tension so high I couldn’t practice on it. Resolved that by putting on LaBella SuperNils. At least I can practice on it now. And now I can see that it could be in the student bass category. It isn’t EVER going to be played in an orchestra that’s for certain. Though I intend to haul it around for gigs and jams.

Recently went to a music store and saw a new double bass with a tag on it “Student Bass”. It had a nice darker, non shiny finish on it. I tried to play it but found that the fingerboard was loose. So I couldn’t feel/hear it’s qualities for myself but it certainly got me to wondering about this student bass thing that folks talk about here on TB. Proprietor was way too busy so I had no discussion with him though he did acknowledge that bass was going to be picked up for repairs.
 
I think we are discussing a very clear distinction between a "student double bass" that someone would buy who intends (or hopes) to go to an elite music school with the intent to move into a high-level professional double bass career, and a "student double bass" that someone who is informally learning to play double bass (with or without a local teacher) has bought with the intent to play with local bands.

The common "student double bass" at your local music store -- if you can find such a local music store -- would probably not be the higher level "student double bass" even though it is labeled the same as one. I think we're talking about a build quality and value difference of one or more thousand dollars.

We've got a terminology problem in part because many if not most retail outlets -- even some of the most respected ones -- tend to call whatever lowest level they can afford to carry a "student double bass" or something very closely implying the same thing.

Maybe there's a better way to identify these two distinctly different "student double bass" levels of quality here so it won't be quite so confusing???
 
“Student” vs “pro” vs “fine”, etc. are marketing terms used to help justify the prices at which people try to sell certain instruments. You’re going to get different answers from different people on what levels certain instruments fall into, and they are context and genre dependent. Shens are often considered “student” basses - well I play a Shen, and I sometimes get paid to play it, so does that make my bass a “professional” bass? I mostly play jazz and pizz gigs, though. As @Wasnex mentioned, a serious classical player would likely be looking to upgrade from there at some point.


IMHO student and entry level pro are pretty much the same level.

In junior high and high school, I played standard heavy classical literature on laminate basses. It can be done, but IMHO a laminate bass is far from ideal for serious bowing.

The last instrument I played professionally probably qualifies as a fine instrument. It was a 7/8 Lakeburg Baer that the organization had commissioned for one of my peers. Prior to that I played what I considered student level basses. I think the Lakeburg Baer would have been really nice for section work in an orchestra. It didn't amplify very well, so it wasn't great for my job.

Many years ago on tour, I visited Robertson and Sons. I believe they had the biggest bass inventory I have ever seen. This is included a sizeable collection of fine quality basses. I found I preferred some of the Shens that were priced around $6K-$7K over all of the fine instruments I demoed. The Shens played easily and had a mix of tonal qualities that I like. The store also had one hybrid that I found to be remarkable. Not sure if it was a Thompson RM200 or a Shen. I felt it was about 80-90% as good as the Shens I liked.

My perception is a student level instrument will put one at a disadvantage in the orchestral audition environment; perhaps regardless of how great you sound. I believe most players who want to work in a serious orchestras invest in a fine instrument.
 
I remember in high school finding a double bass in one of the rehearsal rooms. Being an electric bass rock player I went in and tried out this strange instrument. I recall the instrument as huge. I tried some off my usual rock riffs on it. That was an eye opener - (No go!). The double bass, even a student level double bass is a mighty instrument.
 
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I think we are discussing a very clear distinction between a "student double bass" that someone would buy who intends (or hopes) to go to an elite music school with the intent to move into a high-level professional double bass career, and a "student double bass" that someone who is informally learning to play double bass (with or without a local teacher) has bought with the intent to play with local bands.
Yep. The intended meaning is not super precise and varies with context.

If you go to a general music store, I think they would be likely to consider a laminate bass "student" level.

If you go to a high-end violin ship, double bass specialty shop, or talk to a "snob" like me :bag: , they may think of laminate as possibly a crude beginner instrument :vomit:. This level of shop would most likely rent out laminate basses, but try to talk anyone who was serious enough to want to buy their own into considering a hybrid or carved instrument.

I don't necessarily think most junior high or high school bassists should buy a carved upright...or buy any double bass for that matter. Although I had shown enough talent and dedication for my parents to offer to buy me a carved bass when I was still in high-school, I declined. At that point I didn't really expect to be a professional musician, so I did not see the purchase as justifiable. In fact I dropped out of the string program shortly thereafter. In college I played carved basses provided by the school. It would have been nice to have my own carved bass at that time.

There are settings where laminate is pretty much expected and preferred. I get the impression old Kays are sort of preferred in blue grass circles, and some folks may actually look down on hybrids or carved basses.

For the record the only double bass I have ever owned was a Kay. I bought it for $200 around 1988. It had a blank bridge and the finger board had been fractured, glued back together, and then anchored to the neck with some really big screws. It was a pretty awful instrument, but it gave me something to practice...and I used it to win an audition for the Air Force field band program. I played it in the Air Force for a year or so and also played it in a local community orchestra. Eventually sold it for $400.
 
I'm violin player rather than acoustic bass, but a couple of things hold true with acoustic instruments. First, you get what you pay for. Buy as good as you can. Secondly, if you're not experienced, volume is a proxy for quality. If the instrument resonates well, you can shape the tone with set up (tailpiece, bridge, sound post etc) and strings. If it's dull there's not much you can do - Welcome to laminate. Steel yourself for major debt :)
 
“Student” vs “pro” vs “fine”, etc. are marketing terms used to help justify the prices at which people try to sell certain instruments. You’re going to get different answers from different people on what levels certain instruments fall into, and they are context and genre dependent. Shens are often considered “student” basses - well I play a Shen, and I sometimes get paid to play it, so does that make my bass a “professional” bass? I mostly play jazz and pizz gigs, though. As @Wasnex mentioned, a serious classical player would likely be looking to upgrade from there at some point.
Yes, the term is meant to encourage buying the more expensive instruments. One brand - I won't mention names - advertises ALL of its basses as "student level" EXCEPT for the two highest tiers.
 
Just out of curiosity, help me understand. I don't play either double bass nor violin or whatever. My only experience is with acoustic guitars. What Bass Motifs said tends to apply with acoustic guitars too.

Just focusing on dreadnoughts now (to compare apples with apples) cheap laminate instruments tend to have overbright tone with very little depth or nuance to it, and note separation is mediocre (which is why you can get away with strumming a cheap guitar and which is why they may actually be better than good guitars for some rootsy stuff). Volume is not necessarily low, in fact a lot of cheap laminate acoustic guitars are quite loud (and brash). Having solid woods, at least for the top, and ideally for the back and sides too, improves things a lot, as in "it actually sounds nice". That's not the only factor though, and better craftsmanship, better woods (or better selected woods) will eventually give better tone and actual projection (cheaper guitars may be loud but sound tinny). It eventually stops getting noticeably better around the $3000 mark (and I think you can easily get away with playing and even recording professionally with, like, a $1000 guitar or so - or lower still), but guitars are folk instruments :D
 
Both of my kids took string lessons, so I'm familiar with "student" instruments. I've also talked to a lot of the other parents.

Sure, it's a fraught term, but I think an interesting factor is that these instruments are being purchased, or rented, by people who are not sophisticated musicians, or possibly even musicians at all. They can't evaluate the quality of an instrument on the spot. Many instruments are bought in quantity and maintained by schools, or by the rental companies that serve the schools.

The place where my band rehearses is in a warehouse for a store that rents instruments to schools. For the June rehearsal, we're always surrounded by literal heaps of instruments, that have been returned from rental programs. The store spends the summer sorting them out, repairing as needed, cleaning up, and preparing them for another year.

Those are student instruments. ;) Also, crappy instruments are not student instruments. Parents don't want to deal with an instrument that's unplayable, or falls apart, nor do schools or rental shops. If it were possible that they could just buy an entry level outfit from an absolutely trusted brand, sight unseen, they'd do it. Yamaha has that reputation.

For the most part, the parents want quality, but their view of quality is influenced by consumer products and modern quality control, which is focused on consistency. This is what they expect from something that costs more than an iPhone. They're deeply skeptical of a market that's always pressuring them to spend just another $1000 for an even nicer instrument. Especially when they're also conscious that their kid might spontaneously quit, or switch to another instrument.
 
So, to expand this a bit from just a quick response last night when I caught this thread.... a lot of us have some similar thoughts, opinions and experiences. I think this topic is fascinating because I get to approach it from two angles - one, as a school orchestra director who mostly works with elementary aged students and their families, of which a big part of the onboarding process is getting a hold of an instrument; and two, as a double bassist who's been playing long enough to least have a somewhat discerning ear and is wondering where the sweet spot is for the amount of bass that I want to make me happy. So:

What are the things that determine a bass is a “student” bass? I suppose a 1/4 or 1/2 size might be a big indicator? But what else? Cheaper hardware? Finger board material?

What are the drawbacks of student basses? Advantages?
Again, remembering that "student" is a marketing term - I call bulls*** on it. At the lower range of price points (heck, at any price point) there are quality instruments and crappy instruments. A quality student (and by student, let's say up to a few thousand dollars) instrument is typically going to be made with high quality materials and be constructed by or at least under the supervision of someone who has some semblance of what it takes for an instrument to sound decent and hold up over the long term to the rigors of regular use. Anything not meeting this standard, IMO, is not something I would recommend or want to play myself. Quality materials, at a bare minimum, include good wood for the body (even if that just means the proper type of plywood for cellos and basses) and neck, and an ebony fingerboard. A quality instrument should also have at least a halfway decent setup that doesn't require taking it to a shop right away to get it play relatively easily.

For a comparison, the first "student double bass" popping up on my Amazon search is a Cecilio something-or-another- oak fingerboard, an immediate no-go for me because I know there's a high likelihood they're cutting significant corners elsewhere if they won't even put an ebony board on it. I've seen too many of these instruments as a school orchestra teacher. I don't like them (but I tolerate them, because it's the best that some of my families can afford, I recognize that, and I try to make those instruments sound and play that best I can). Eastman, on the other hand, which is a brand I know well and trust because they are consistently well made, includes an ebony fingerboard on even its lowest entry model, the VB80.

Now, before I get flak for ragging on Cecilio, Mendini, or whatever other Amazon CCIs/ISOs are out there - obviously it's a free capitalist market, you can spend your money how you want to, and if you're satisfied with such an instrument, play it in good health and flame away until I am extra crispy. Let me state again, however, that I work as a school orchestra director and have done so for over 10 years. My data set for comparison is the roughly one thousand or so orchestral string instruments that have passed through my program in that time. The difference in quality between a rental instrument such as Eastman, Strobel, Yamaha, Scherl & Roth, or many of the house brands sold exclusively through string speciality shops vs. these Amazon instruments is quite obvious. Ask me which ones are far, far more likely to break just by looking at them, even from something as simple as the glue at the neck joint failing after a few months because it isn't strong enough. Ask me which ones come out of the box with strings so high off the fingerboard you could drive a truck underneath them, if they even come with the bridge cut and slotted at all. Ask me which ones literally feel spongy at the tuners or need to be retuned multiple times in the same 30 minute lesson because the wood is so soft, green, flimsy, or just not properly braced. It's ridiculous.

One caveat - I will say that some of these Amazon brands do offer instruments that approach the quality level of Eastman and similar. They are also similar in price though (in this price tier of instruments, I do believe that you generally get what you pay for) and I've only seen maybe a handful of them. In my community at least, families who choose to buy outright typically aren't shelling out that much money for their kid's first instrument.

The string instrument business is also notoriously opaque at all levels. There's not nearly as much brand recognition as there is for many other products. Eastman is perhaps the best known brand among student instruments IMO, and even then I imagine that many have not heard of them. Again, as I mentioned before, string specialty shops have a foothold in many communities still, and many of them work directly with manufacturers or at least middlemen who only sell through these speciality shops to offer a "house brand" for school rentals, entry level purchases, etc. to capture the slice of the market that isn't looking for a professional-level instrument. With it being something of a niche market, unless you have experience and know what to look for, it can be very difficult to know whether an instrument is high quality or not. This is one reason why it drives me up a wall that there's a plethora of social media influencers peddling these ISOs - getting paid by these manufacturers to do it, I have no doubt whatsoever - and trying to compare them favorably to instruments that are actually well made.

So tl;dr - the advice we've been hocking to newbies on here is still the most sage - figure out your price point and go shopping with someone who has experience and who you trust.

I think we are discussing a very clear distinction between a "student double bass" that someone would buy who intends (or hopes) to go to an elite music school with the intent to move into a high-level professional double bass career, and a "student double bass" that someone who is informally learning to play double bass (with or without a local teacher) has bought with the intent to play with local bands.

The common "student double bass" at your local music store -- if you can find such a local music store -- would probably not be the higher level "student double bass" even though it is labeled the same as one. I think we're talking about a build quality and value difference of one or more thousand dollars.

We've got a terminology problem in part because many if not most retail outlets -- even some of the most respected ones -- tend to call whatever lowest level they can afford to carry a "student double bass" or something very closely implying the same thing.

Maybe there's a better way to identify these two distinctly different "student double bass" levels of quality here so it won't be quite so confusing???

Yes, again - context is so important to this discussion. Most of the schools around where I live are stocked, if they are fortunate, mostly with laminate basses from a high quality brand like Eastman or similar. The rare hybrid or carved bass might be reserved for a first-chair player.

My general experience in my geographical area resonates with yours in that string instrument and double basses in general don't get much attention at all at the local omnibus music store, and it probably skews the general layperson's perception of what constitutes student-level instrument quality. A trip to a string speciality shop, or ideally a double bass shop, is much more likely to result in finding good instruments.

IMO, in the orchestral world, laminate basses are probably enough for the casual K-12 student who just wants to play in their school orchestra and has no aspirations of post-secondary study. Anyone getting serious with the bow, however, needs to be looking at a carved top at minimum.

Point of comparison, though - as @Wasnex mentioned above, the same old Kays that were yesterday's high school orchestra bass are some of the most vaunted instruments in use in the bluegrass/folk/Americana world. The same can be said of some of those old Juzek and other early 20th century central & eastern European instruments - were they not the cheap mass-produced basses of their day as the European economy was trying to dig itself out of the ravages of WWI? Now some of the better examples of that era rank among the most favored jazz basses out there and command a price suggestive of this level of desirability.

Many years ago on tour, I visited Robertson and Sons. I believe they had the biggest bass inventory I have ever seen. This is included a sizeable collection of fine quality basses. I found I preferred some of the Shens that were priced around $6K-$7K over all of the fine instruments I demoed. The Shens played easily and had a mix of tonal qualities that I like. The store also had one hybrid that I found to be remarkable. Not sure if it was a Thompson RM200 or a Shen. I felt it was about 80-90% as good as the Shens I liked.
So here's where I think it gets interesting. There definitely is some variance in quality with so-described "student" instruments as I shared my thoughts on above, but I believe that price and quality are pretty strongly correlated up to a certain point. This correlation continues into the higher price tiers but I believe it gets more and more nebulous as we venture farther past the point of diminishing returns. My Shen, at least to my ears, has compared favorably to many (but not all, certainly) instruments costing multiple times what I paid for it. I have played numerous basses, almost all of them old, that people were asking anywhere from ~$10K-$25K that simply did not sound or feel as good to play. Maybe they just needed new strings and a setup, or would have sounded and played leaps and bounds better than my Shen in a section. Who knows.

Certainly, though, I have also played fine basses that were no doubt worth the many thousands, sometimes even six figures being asked for them. Truly marvelous instruments. I maintain, though, that even at that tier, price does not always equal quality. It's kind of like wine; there's a lot of hype and it's easy to get pulled into it if one isn't careful.

Regardless of price point, listen with your ears, not your wallet - easier said than done, I admit!
 
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I am just echoing what @Scott Lynch said but very much the whole idea of a student upright is nothing more than in my honest opinion marketing. I had an intense debate many times with one professional trombonist on a forum back in those days when I play bone. This user was very hardcore that student bones were truly different and were different and better than a "Cheap" one and that if a student played on a "Pro" horn would struggle... It for sure will differ for all instruments but many classical/school instruments like violins, trumpets etc., will have student on them to aid parents to find a cheap one or even for mass buying for schools.

Just my 2 cents best of luck in your searches.
 
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@CharleyJackson you didn't give us context for your question, but "student double bass" doesn't mean that it would be wouldn't be an acceptable working instrument for an adult DEPENDING on what they were doing. Laminate double bases work for a lot of people in some genres.
 
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