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Double Bass studying bass without learning arco
- Thread starter James Kenneth
- Start date
I see absolutely no problem in being an "arco - less player"
It sounds as if some people think you have no right to play the instrument unless you can bow!
I love playing with the bow and went through a stage where I was bowing alot of solos...trying to get that horn like sound. I can't find the combination of strings that allow me to bow and at the same time, get the pizz. sound I want, so out went the bow.
It sounds as if some people think you have no right to play the instrument unless you can bow!
I love playing with the bow and went through a stage where I was bowing alot of solos...trying to get that horn like sound. I can't find the combination of strings that allow me to bow and at the same time, get the pizz. sound I want, so out went the bow.
In response to Chris about Michael Formanek: I was too a huge fan of him but got the opportunity to see him live and was appalled with his intonation. i thought maybe he was having an off night or something, so I went to see him again. That time he was worse. It was quite a dissapointment as at the time he was quite an influence on me. Especially his work with Time Berne's Bloodcount. I will however say his sense of time and rhythm are a sight to behold.
I know he does not practice arco after having a conversation with him. I have found that 99% of the bassists I have spoken to who don't practice arco have questionable intonation. Having said that I do realize intonation is one of the eternal battles for double bassists. When I first started I too did not play arco. My intonation has improved 500% since I decided to start.
I find that a lot of pizz only players also use a lot of amplification. This coupled with the fact the thi pizz sound as beautiful as it is, can really cover up microtones thus allowing the player to believe he/she is in tune. I think it is quite a wake up call when said playr bows the string and finds that 10 cents sharp or flat really does make a difference.
I think another point is solid positioning. In order to get a good tone out of a bowed bass positioning is crucial. I just feel that it is a shame to decide to rob yourself of one of the wonderful tools available to you with the bow.
As a reference please check out the bassists Fernando Grillo, Stefano Scoddanibbio, Joelle Leandre, Barry Guy, Peter Kowald, Barre Phillips, John Lindberg and the host of others who have not only mastered their bow but have succeeded in radically transfoeming waht we expect the bass's role and sonic palette is.
I guess I am just a bow nazi and that is my two cents.
Having said that the reality of it is we play because it enhances our lives in whatever way. The bass chooses us and not the other way around. Whatever relationship we have with the bass is intimate and I heartily respect. I am just an advocate of advancing the instrument so it does not once agin fall into obscurity.
At any rate happy playing and lucky you for having bass enter your life.
I know he does not practice arco after having a conversation with him. I have found that 99% of the bassists I have spoken to who don't practice arco have questionable intonation. Having said that I do realize intonation is one of the eternal battles for double bassists. When I first started I too did not play arco. My intonation has improved 500% since I decided to start.
I find that a lot of pizz only players also use a lot of amplification. This coupled with the fact the thi pizz sound as beautiful as it is, can really cover up microtones thus allowing the player to believe he/she is in tune. I think it is quite a wake up call when said playr bows the string and finds that 10 cents sharp or flat really does make a difference.
I think another point is solid positioning. In order to get a good tone out of a bowed bass positioning is crucial. I just feel that it is a shame to decide to rob yourself of one of the wonderful tools available to you with the bow.
As a reference please check out the bassists Fernando Grillo, Stefano Scoddanibbio, Joelle Leandre, Barry Guy, Peter Kowald, Barre Phillips, John Lindberg and the host of others who have not only mastered their bow but have succeeded in radically transfoeming waht we expect the bass's role and sonic palette is.
I guess I am just a bow nazi and that is my two cents.
Having said that the reality of it is we play because it enhances our lives in whatever way. The bass chooses us and not the other way around. Whatever relationship we have with the bass is intimate and I heartily respect. I am just an advocate of advancing the instrument so it does not once agin fall into obscurity.
At any rate happy playing and lucky you for having bass enter your life.
Cowboy,
I don't know about percentages, but my take on the arco/intonation issue is that players who are going to play in tune will play in tune, and those who are not won't. I know several "arcoless" players with great intonation and quite a few arco players whose intonation blows chunks. I can't tell from Paul W's response whether he still does any arco playing, but his intonation is great. I consider my own intonation to be okay, and where it could be better I can usually pinpoint the issue to my not HEARING what I was trying to play well enough, or to making an unfamiliar leap on the same string while improvising. (You can hear a bunch of Talkbass players by following the links in the "sampler" thread...I don't know if I'm the only "arcoless" player on there or not). Suffice it to say, I strongly believe that good intonation can be had without arco practice if the player in question listens intently enough to what he/she is hearing and playing. YMMV.
I don't know about percentages, but my take on the arco/intonation issue is that players who are going to play in tune will play in tune, and those who are not won't. I know several "arcoless" players with great intonation and quite a few arco players whose intonation blows chunks. I can't tell from Paul W's response whether he still does any arco playing, but his intonation is great. I consider my own intonation to be okay, and where it could be better I can usually pinpoint the issue to my not HEARING what I was trying to play well enough, or to making an unfamiliar leap on the same string while improvising. (You can hear a bunch of Talkbass players by following the links in the "sampler" thread...I don't know if I'm the only "arcoless" player on there or not). Suffice it to say, I strongly believe that good intonation can be had without arco practice if the player in question listens intently enough to what he/she is hearing and playing. YMMV.
Are there any books, videos (aside from Ray's), threads here, or any information anywhere that address these issues in depth?
First of all as I don't really know to much web lingo I'd like to inquire as to what exactly that means.
Second of all I may be an arco nazi but I have to give my best regards to linoleum fungus for playing the bass anyway.
In reality I am just glad there is another person who wants to play this noble instrument anyway.
Lin Fung, whatever route you choose best of luck on your endeavours and just please find a teacher.
A teacher will prevent you from injury. I hate to see players who start only to be forced to stop playing because of improper technique. I attached a picture as example.
Feel free to slam me for my dislike of this bassist too.
I don't do any bowing at all anymore.
Chris' intonation is impeccable. To say that arco helps your intonation is very true. To say that you can't achive great intonation without being able to bow is ludicrous!
As Chris said, you can check our intonation by going to Recordings/TBDB sampler.
I'm not going to start listing a BUNCH of bassists who have excellent intonation and have done it all with no help from the bow.
As I said, I love playing with the bow, but I found the frustration of finding the right Pizz/Arco strings too much to deal with for very little pay-back.
I decided to come back in and edit my post here.
Some times we get in the habit of forgetting the the questions and ideas of the original thread.
Lin, I consider myself a double bass purist. With this as one of my original inclusions, besides playing, repairing, selling, collecting etc, I would be remiss in not including the art of arco in my total commitment to the double bass.
I suggest you do include the bow in your total playing picture. Some can do without , but do everything you can to make sure!
For about the last two months I've been working with the bow. In my practice routine, it's got the most time right now.
I think Chris and Paul are absolutely correct: it's not necessary to learn the bow to play in tune. What I've discovered -- and it's pretty damn obvious -- is that arco simply makes it easier to hear pitch. The note sounds longer and it's rich with overtones.
It's like putting your intonation under a high res scanner and having a close-up look at it. Sure, you can do without, but I'm pissed at myself for not doing this years ago.
I think Chris and Paul are absolutely correct: it's not necessary to learn the bow to play in tune. What I've discovered -- and it's pretty damn obvious -- is that arco simply makes it easier to hear pitch. The note sounds longer and it's rich with overtones.
It's like putting your intonation under a high res scanner and having a close-up look at it. Sure, you can do without, but I'm pissed at myself for not doing this years ago.
I'll give just one recent example of how much difference arco playing can make in your perception of your own ability to play in tune.
I was recently struggling through a D minor etude from Simandel (I know I probably spelled that wrong) - I had trouble with my intonation.
Then after the lesson wrapped up, I ran through the study again without the bow - it sounded really quite respectable. Silly me, I thought that perhaps I was just more relaxed since the lesson was over. So I tried it again with the bow.
Well...let's just say I still have alot of work to do.
I was recently struggling through a D minor etude from Simandel (I know I probably spelled that wrong) - I had trouble with my intonation.
Then after the lesson wrapped up, I ran through the study again without the bow - it sounded really quite respectable. Silly me, I thought that perhaps I was just more relaxed since the lesson was over. So I tried it again with the bow.
Well...let's just say I still have alot of work to do.
lin fung
When my teacher's students get to a certain point in the book, he gives them the option of dropping the bow and continuing the method pizz only. He told me that while many of his students start out certain that they'll dump the stick at the first opportunity, only a few have taken the 'pizz only' road.
I started out certain that I'd want to drop the bow. Now I'm two pages away from the decision point and I can't imagine continuing without it.
When my teacher's students get to a certain point in the book, he gives them the option of dropping the bow and continuing the method pizz only. He told me that while many of his students start out certain that they'll dump the stick at the first opportunity, only a few have taken the 'pizz only' road.
I started out certain that I'd want to drop the bow. Now I'm two pages away from the decision point and I can't imagine continuing without it.
I've read this a few times now and it just doesn't make any logical sense to me and I tend to agree more with Chris and Paul when he says "To say that you can't achieve great intonation without being able to bow is ludicrous!"
So "koricancowboy" says that the player will get a wake-up call when they take up the bow - but what about if you are a comitted life-long Jazz player who is never going to take up the bow, never going to play unamplified - then why does it matter?
Surely all that matters is that the other musicians and the audience like what they hear -and whether a individual note is microtonally "out", is entirely irrelevant?
So - what is important is that somebody like Charlie Haden makes great music and people buy his albums, go along to his concerts, want to play with him etc. - I own several albums where he plays/writes/arranges and would be very proud to have made such great music and couldn't care less about any minor "eccentricities" of technique!!
Surely there is a point where technique for its own sake, is just a waste of time - if nobody can hear the difference!!
That's why I was very careful to say in my post that it didn't make any logical sense - as in "does not compute"!! 
Also, I was asking the question in my second two paragraphs - I am happy to admit I know nothing about bowing,although it was Chris F who said he didn't use a bow, but surely there has to be some logic applied to any situation?
Also, I was asking the question in my second two paragraphs - I am happy to admit I know nothing about bowing,although it was Chris F who said he didn't use a bow, but surely there has to be some logic applied to any situation?
I've been through this thread again, and I've found only one guy (LM Bass -- a Vancouver Symphony Orchestra player, if I'm not mistaken) who says you HAVE to do arco. PacMan got close when he interpreted A.H. Bob as saying you need to do arco to get your tuning together. Everyone else is saying some variation of "it's a good thing to do because: 1) it can really help with developing intonation accuracy; 2) it can really help with left hand strength; and, 3) it can really help with getting sustain."
Nobody has said, Bruce, that you can't be a good double bass player -- jazz or otherwise -- without arco.
I am one of those who thought for the longest time I would never need it. Then I gave it a good effort over a couple of months and -- as I said -- I'm pissed at myself for not doing this years ago. You have to be willing to go through a phase of sounding quite bad -- that should tell you something...
Post-posting note: As for the "what does it matter if I'm a dedicated jazz player who'll never use the bow?" Well, of course we all make our musical decisions, aesthetic decisions about what sounds Good and Pleasant and Right. I just recall doing some Paul Chambers transcriptions recently where I slowed down the tempos without altering pitch. What was really interesting was how much PC still swung at with that synthetically slow tempo. The other interesting thing was how seriously out of tune he was. As great as he was -- and he was seriously GREAT -- he would have been better with more work at intonation.
I'm no intonation freak. Just yesterday I was digging the hell out of Milt Hinton demo-ing his slap stylings to Marion McPartland. He was wayyyy out of tune on a lot of it, but the whole thing was so stylin' that it didn't matter.
My opinions only. Yours will vary, I'm sure.
Nobody has said, Bruce, that you can't be a good double bass player -- jazz or otherwise -- without arco.
I am one of those who thought for the longest time I would never need it. Then I gave it a good effort over a couple of months and -- as I said -- I'm pissed at myself for not doing this years ago. You have to be willing to go through a phase of sounding quite bad -- that should tell you something...
Post-posting note: As for the "what does it matter if I'm a dedicated jazz player who'll never use the bow?" Well, of course we all make our musical decisions, aesthetic decisions about what sounds Good and Pleasant and Right. I just recall doing some Paul Chambers transcriptions recently where I slowed down the tempos without altering pitch. What was really interesting was how much PC still swung at with that synthetically slow tempo. The other interesting thing was how seriously out of tune he was. As great as he was -- and he was seriously GREAT -- he would have been better with more work at intonation.
I'm no intonation freak. Just yesterday I was digging the hell out of Milt Hinton demo-ing his slap stylings to Marion McPartland. He was wayyyy out of tune on a lot of it, but the whole thing was so stylin' that it didn't matter.
My opinions only. Yours will vary, I'm sure.
Well I quoted the part I was taking issue with in my post - so just to be clear, I'll do it again :
korican cowboy said :
"This coupled with the fact the pizz sound as beautiful as it is, can really cover up microtones thus allowing the player to believe he/she is in tune. I think it is quite a wake up call when said playr bows the string and finds that 10 cents sharp or flat really does make a difference."
This was what I was taking issue with - it makes no logical sense to me - this is what I was questioning - not any other part of the thread or any general point!!
I see, Bruce. Sorry for leaping, etc. -- as always, e-mail communication is kludgy.
I'd just like to comment that cowboy's comments aren't too outrageous. Have you tried the bowing thing, Bruce? It's dead apparent to the pizz-only player that something different is going on with intonation and the bow. Play something you know well in pizz and it sounds as you'd expect. Play it arco and it sounds like crap, tuning-wise. Why? I'm not the one to bring it, but I'm sure there is a logical explanation for this well-known phenomenon. It's definitely there.
I'd just like to comment that cowboy's comments aren't too outrageous. Have you tried the bowing thing, Bruce? It's dead apparent to the pizz-only player that something different is going on with intonation and the bow. Play something you know well in pizz and it sounds as you'd expect. Play it arco and it sounds like crap, tuning-wise. Why? I'm not the one to bring it, but I'm sure there is a logical explanation for this well-known phenomenon. It's definitely there.
I can quite believe that - BUT - my point was - if you are certain that you are a life-long committed Jazz player who is always going to play pizz at gigs - why does this matter?
That was my point and why I said it was a question of logic.
I quite agree -- if that's your choice, it matters not at all. Sounds a lot like my choice to go it without a teacher for about 20 years: I wish I hadn't!
IMO, ideally a bassist should make the arco choice from a position of experience -- a la Monsieur Warburton -- and not because he thinks he'll never need it.
Amongst other things, I'm getting off at being LOUD for once! If I play long tones close to the bridge, I can almost drown out my metronome with volume. Can't even get close to that with pizz!
IMO, ideally a bassist should make the arco choice from a position of experience -- a la Monsieur Warburton -- and not because he thinks he'll never need it.
Amongst other things, I'm getting off at being LOUD for once! If I play long tones close to the bridge, I can almost drown out my metronome with volume. Can't even get close to that with pizz!
I can see both side of the argument - but I can also imagine the wrong decision as you say, will waste a lot of time - 10s of years!!
So - I could (in theory) take up DB, go away and practice my intonation with the bow for 10 years, always unhappy with the results.
Or I could be happy that intonation on pizz sounds OK to me, my teacher, the rest of the band, audiences etc. and make music for that 10 years!!
Which would be the most productive use of my time....?
So - I could (in theory) take up DB, go away and practice my intonation with the bow for 10 years, always unhappy with the results.
Or I could be happy that intonation on pizz sounds OK to me, my teacher, the rest of the band, audiences etc. and make music for that 10 years!!
Which would be the most productive use of my time....?
