Double Bass Suggestions for Cello Low F String

[s van order]

Hi bassists, I am a cellist/bassist and my main fiddle is now a 5-string L&C carbon fiber cello with a low F. It took about a year to shake it all out re setup and technique adjustment, and it was worth it. With a touch of amplification for pizz it does a nice job as a bass as well as provides me with a resonant full range cello. No more doubling required.

The supplied F string is the D’Addario made for the NS 5-string electric cello. While I am grateful that it even exists, it is not optimal. A bit flabby and dull, esp. compared to the higher 4 strings, under both arco and pizz.

I researched short scale EB flatwound E and the E string for Fender VI (close mensur/scale). Re tension, I think the EB string w/b a few pounds higher but the carbon fiber cello is quite strong and I have a robust French-style bridge, so think it w/b OK. But, the difference in cello and EB string construction may result in poor arco.

Do any of you have advice or suggestions? Thanks in advance.

 

[Sam Dingle]

Hi bassists, I am a cellist/bassist and my main fiddle is now a 5-string L&C carbon fiber cello with a low F. It took about a year to shake it all out re setup and technique adjustment, and it was worth it. With a touch of amplification for pizz it does a nice job as a bass as well as provides me with a resonant full range cello. No more doubling required.

The supplied F string is the D’Addario made for the NS 5-string electric cello. While I am grateful that it even exists, it is not optimal. A bit flabby and dull, esp. compared to the higher 4 strings, under both arco and pizz.

I researched short scale EB flatwound E and the E string for Fender VI (close mensur/scale). Re tension, I think the EB string w/b a few pounds higher but the carbon fiber cello is quite strong and I have a robust French-style bridge, so think it w/b OK. But, the difference in cello and EB string construction may result in poor arco.

Do any of you have advice or suggestions? Thanks in advance.

My first thought is you can maybe use a solo bass F# string and tune it down a step. maybe a spirocore. I think i have an old one lying around.

 

[Francois Blais]

He plays a cello, Sam.
Scale is around 27,4 inches (70cm).
You’d need to cut a regular bass string quite short, and to find which one to use to get proper pitch with appropriate tension.
Maybe @DoubleMIDI could help with formulas?

That said, maybe fractional bass strings would be better.
Like:
FRACTIONAL DOUBLE BASS TUNGSTEN NL350D

Helicore orch. 1/10 size:
D'Addario Helicore Orchestra 1/8 and 1/10 Scale Upright Bass Strings at Gollihur Music - Double Bass, Upright Bass, String Bass Specialists

 

[s van order]

My first thought is you can maybe use a solo bass F# string and tune it down a step. maybe a spirocore. I think i have an old one lying around.

Thanks for the thought. The scale difference is the issue there.

 

[s van order]

He plays a cello, Sam.
Scale is around 27,4 inches (70cm).
You’d need to cut a regular bass string quite short, and to find which one to use to get proper pitch with appropriate tension.
Maybe @DoubleMIDI could help with formulas?

That said, maybe fractional bass strings would be better.
Like:
FRACTIONAL DOUBLE BASS TUNGSTEN NL350D

Helicore orch. 1/10 size:
D'Addario Helicore Orchestra 1/8 and 1/10 Scale Upright Bass Strings at Gollihur Music - Double Bass, Upright Bass, String Bass Specialists

Thanks. I will explore these suggestions. It looks like the matching scale of a cello at about 27” is a 1/10 size bass. So I will explore that option in an E string.

update: I purchased a D’Addario Helicore E for 1/10 scale bass. Thanks Francois Blais! I will report on how it works out.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

An E String of 74.16 cm has the same tension as an F string on 70 cm vibrating string length.
So an E string for that longer mensure might be a better fit if it matches the tension of your other strings.
If not my collection of (self calculating) formulas in my file formulas.html might help. Tuning an E string to F results in a higher tension of 12%.

Get formulas.html from my Dropbox (link in signature and string sticky) and load it into a browser with javascript enabled. Don’t forget to finish your input with enter to get the result of the calculation.

 

[Mudfuzz]

Just a heads up. There are 2 other options other than D’Addario, granted... more than likely meh

Super Sensitive makes a synthetic core string Super Sensitive Sensicore Cello Strings

Wood Violins Cobra Cello F String Wood Violins Cobra Cello F String I might get one of these maybe for my NS electric cello.. maybe.

Also maybe you could ask gamut if they had something that could work or maybe they could make you something..

 

[s van order]

Just a heads up. There are 2 other options other than D’Addario, granted... more than likely meh

Super Sensitive makes a synthetic core string Super Sensitive Sensicore Cello Strings

Wood Violins Cobra Cello F String Wood Violins Cobra Cello F String I might get one of these maybe for my NS electric cello.. maybe.

Also maybe you could ask gamut if they had something that could work or maybe they could make you something..

Thanks for the ideas. So you are not a fan of the NS cello F either? I ordered a 1/10 size Helicore E that has similar scale as my cello, hoping for better results. Of course, I may find it is the same D’Addario string as the one used on the NS cello, and supplied with mine, lol.

I have thought of asking a string maker but imagine it has to have a high price tag.

 

[Mudfuzz]

I find the ns cello f too low tension, in compairison to the other strings in thier set, you can't really dig in when you need to... I really hope as 5 string cellos catch on one of the other makers will make a lof f that has more power. Please post you findings on the fractional bass string.

 

[jdthebassman]

I would call Labella, they could make you a string, I have had good luck in the past.

 

[Francois Blais]

Maybe this would interest you:
For Sale - D'Addario Helicore Medium Tension Cello strings tuned in Fourths
They're still listed on D'Addario's website, but out of stock.
Helicore Fourths-Tuning Cello | Orchestral | D'Addario
The seller here didn't come back on Talkbass since january 2019 though.

 

[s van order]

Maybe this would interest you:
For Sale - D'Addario Helicore Medium Tension Cello strings tuned in Fourths
They're still listed on D'Addario's website, but out of stock.
Helicore Fourths-Tuning Cello | Orchestral | D'Addario
The seller here didn't come back on Talkbass since january 2019 though.

Thanks, but I need the F below the E string in those 4ths-tuned sets for cello. They’re an octave above bass tuning. I have a 1/10 scale E string coming per your advice. I also inquired about a custom-made string from Rostavno (maker of my CGDA set). I’ve gotten thoughtful suggestions from the bass community and I am very appreciative.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If you want an F string a fifth below the Cello C, it is only a halftone above he double bass E, not an octave above.
I'm not familiar with typical Cello string tension, but I'm rather sure that it is lower than the typical bass string tension.
I think that 1/10 Bass E string might have too much tension, even if tuned to E. If you try to tune it up to F (or even on intended pitch to E) it might break your Cello in pieces.

Could you tell us the tension and mensure from the manufacturer of your or similar Cello strings? Don't risk breaking your instrument!

 

[s van order]

Thank you for your concern. The mensur at open note (scale) is just over 27 inches. The 1/10 scale bass E string I purchased is for the same mensur. The tension s/b no more than a pound or two above a cello C. The instrument is of rigid carbon fiber with a bridge that is thicker than a cello bridge but thinner than a bass bridge.

When using a string tension calculator for 27.25” mensur, F1 pitch, and 0.106 gauge I get 31 lbs. My cello C and G strings are about 30 lbs each. So, if the 1/10 bass E string I bought looks as thick as the 0.105 E string on my electric bass I’m thinking it should be ok. Does this seems correct?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Don’t calculate by gauge. The material of the windings can have different density, depending on the material used.

Use the scale and tension data from the manufacturer and recalculate them to the cello scale and then to the rised pitch with the formulas of my formulas.html which you find in my Dropbox. (Open in Webbrowser with JavaScript enabled.) Link in my signature and String Sticky.
No need to calculate the formulas yourself, just enter the data and do not forget to press enter when finished.

The carbon Cello might be able to hold the tension, but better do the calculation first. Good luck.

 

[s van order]

Don’t calculate by gauge. The material of the windings can have different density, depending on the material used.

Use the scale and tension data from the manufacturer and recalculate them to the cello scale and then to the rised pitch with the formulas of my formulas.html which you find in my Dropbox. (Open in Webbrowser with JavaScript enabled.) Link in my signature and String Sticky.
No need to calculate the formulas yourself, just enter the data and do not forget to press enter when finished.

The carbon Cello might be able to hold the tension, but better do the calculation first. Good luck.

Thank you what a great resource. The string arrived and does not fit the peg or the tailpiece (silks are too thick) and I do not want to modify anything. I’ve written LaBella (per advice on this thread) and Rostanvo about a custom-made string.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Only the core holds the tension, so for the peg you might fix the silk one or two inches below the top end with some glue and remove the windings between glue and end from the string to fit the core to the peg hole.
For the tailpiece it would be better to file the tailpiece slot wider to fit the string. You can fiddle the string through the tailpiece hole from below if the ball end is too thick.
But some years ago I read in a German DB forum that a cello player used a low F cello string for his cello, just cannot remember the manufacturer.

 

[s van order]

Only the core holds the tension, so for the peg you might fix the silk one or two inches below the top end with some glue and remove the windings between glue and end from the string to fit the core to the peg hole.
For the tailpiece it would be better to file the tailpiece slot wider to fit the string. You can fiddle the string through the tailpiece hole from below if the ball end is too thick.
But some years ago I read in a German DB forum that a cello player used a low F cello string for his cello, just cannot remember the manufacturer.

Thanks for the advice. The only manufactured low F I’ve found in my search is the D’Addario I have. It is made to the Helicore model specs. I’m happy that it is available but it is a bit soft and does not have the growling overtones under arco or pizz that my C and G strings have. So I am trying to find a better match.

 

[Mudfuzz]

I do not want to modify anything

Just a few questions on this.
Even though you are playing a carbon fiber cello, you cello is a normal acoustic cello right? it's not like the glassier one?
So it has normal pegs and a tailpiece?

So.. what you could do is either you of a trusted luthier is get an extra tuning peg and make the hole bigger.. and get an extra tailpiece to be modded or made to have a string hole further down the tailpiece to hold a bass string ball further up the tailpiece so that the where the silk ends on a bass string is roughly even with where they do on cello strings. that was you could use any bass string you want..

or a tailpiece like this

 

[s van order]

Just a few questions on this.
Even though you are playing a carbon fiber cello, you cello is a normal acoustic cello right? it's not like the glassier one?
So it has normal pegs and a tailpiece?

So.. what you could do is either you of a trusted luthier is get an extra tuning peg and make the hole bigger.. and get an extra tailpiece to be modded or made to have a string hole further down the tailpiece to hold a bass string ball further up the tailpiece so that the where the silk ends on a bass string is roughly even with where they do on cello strings. that was you could use any bass string you want..

or a tailpiece like this

View attachment 3891697

It is a regular acoustic cello, just made of CF. I have Peghead geared pegs and a 5-string tailpiece set for cello strings. TheD’Addario F is made to match cello afterlength and peg and tailpiece hole sizes. Thanks, that’s good advice on the tailpiece, esp. The afterlength of the 1/10 bass string is longer than a cello string afterlength which left too much string exposed in the pegbox.