suggestions for dealing with difficult musicians

[James Judson]

I recommend you thank him for his advise and drop it. If he confronts you with your choice of "notes" just say "Joe when you play bass you can choose the notes". Then I would refer him to the band leader and let the band leader worry about it. Sleep well knowing you did the best you know how.

 

[sonicnuance]

He might not be acting this way because he's a bad person, or disrespecting you... it may be an emotional or psychological issue with him. (For example, OCD: Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). Or maybe he's overcompensating for feelings of inadequacy in another area of his life. That doesn't mean he's less difficult to deal with, but maybe considering that possibility will allow you to have some emotional distance, and take away some of the 'heat'.

If everybody in the band knows he is a pest, try to let it slide - when this guy is being difficult, everyone recognizes it. Don't let him erode your own confidence.

I don't think talking to him or confronting him is a good idea... that's the band leader's responsibility. If anything, he is undercutting the band leader's authority by trying to give directions. If anything, bring up your concerns with the band leader in private, and be sure to appear calm and reasonable about your complaints.

wow, you guys are good at this... wish I had this forum when I was younger.

The keyboard player emailed me today saying he "admired my graciousness". I asked him to elaborate and he said that even though they were simpler, I still accepted the guitarist's ideas and tried them out. He said it was good that the leader stepped in as it was starting to get uncomfortable. My point is even the keyboardist (who never new "Joe") caught on that the vibes weren't the best.

I think what bugged me the most is I suspected and dreaded coming into practice that Joe would try to assert his authority over the group while not being the leader - thus I was pretty sensitive to this going in. When it was directed at me it hit a nerve. I'm glad the leader stepped in to diffuse the situation. To be fair to Joe, initially he said "try playing roots over the changes" (I listened to the playback)

But after the leader told him I'd do my own baselines, he did throw in "its not what's on the chart, but it should be that way" and "I don't know if you heard the recording but the line has more movement than what you were doing".

 

[ChrisB2]

I'm a little confused. I reread the OP but I still don't see the big problem in that post.

The bandleader kinda put Joe in his box, and you played your lines your way, right?

I guess there's a long-term personality conflict that causes you to overreact maybe?

Nothing wrong with that, I'm just trying to understand.

If you can do it, try to let it slide and tell yourself that your anxiety with Joe is over for good. From now on you're not going to let his personality poison the situation. You're going to play your way, throw his attitude back at him from time to time, and see it all in a humorous light.

I found out years ago that with people who are used to calling the shots and having control, and with huge egos, the best approach is usually to assume they're being humorous and can take what they're dishing out, and throw it right back at them. I did this with a vice president of a large corporation I worked for in my 20s. The guy stopped, looked at me and grinned, obviously surprised that I stood up to his blustering ego, and ever after he treated me with more respect than anyone else in the office.

Try not to let him wound you. Smile, josh back. Like another poster suggested, tell him, "Hey, just play the chords real soft here. That's what you get when I'm in the band." Then smile and wink. It might work wonders.

Hey, it could be worse. It sounds like at least the guy is working with you sonically, trying to get a good mix. In my praise band, there's a guitarist who likes to woof all over my frequencies and doesn't even realize it. However, he's a very gentle, nice man who I can't bring myself to criticize.... go figure.

 

[Depth_Charge]

The other night the leader (who asked Joe to sit in) had to tell him that I (the bassist) would come up with my own basslines and thanks for the suggestions when Joe told me, "Hey, just just play the roots over these changes". His reply to the leader was a joking, "well you knew what to expect when you asked me in".

His reply is irrelevant except for providing insight into his personality.

He was invited to play and given boundaries to respect while doing so.

Play how you play.

If he gives you more lip, refer it to the band leader and don't make it your problem.

Thats how I would handle it anyway.

Best of luck.

 

[sonicnuance]

Very interesting addendum of the saga... I called the leader today to discuss my feelings about the situation. My points were I felt Joe's stern approach and (I suspected) attempts to usurp control of the band from the leader left me with negative feelings towards playing with him.

The leader thanked me for trying Joe's ideas but that Joe was out of line. The leader felt he had to stop Joe right away before he continued to try and control the team or harm the band chemistry. Apparently Joe has insecurities and I was an obvious target as he was originally going to sub for me (he is an amazing guitarist and a great musician, I never would have thought he was insecure about his abilities even on bass - goes to show what I know about reading people ). When my schedule changed the leader asked Joe to play guitar and me bass.

The leader recommended not talking to him unless I needed it to get off my chest or to help the friendship with Joe. Joe and the leader have had conversations about Joe's leadership weaknesses in the past, which was the context of Joe's "you knew what you were getting when you asked me to play" comment. Also, the leader assured me Joe would not be part of the band but only filling in once or twice a year.

I may say something to him but I feel a lot better understanding the context of what was going on. I still don't like this aspect of Joe's character, but I think I can more easily deflect his comments.

Thanks everyone for your replies, they gave me a lot to think about. I learned several things from this situation.

 

[sonicnuance]

wow - great interview. Thanks

 

[sonicnuance]

I guess there's a long-term personality conflict that causes you to overreact maybe?

Nothing wrong with that, I'm just trying to understand.

Yes, in the end it may just be a personality conflict. Yes, we Christians have many fallacies

 

[delta7fred]

Get over him. He's never going to get over himself.

Don't argue, be agreeable with him, and do whatever you want to in spite of him.

It'll probably drive him a little nuts, but better him than you........

Phalex has the answer!

Some guitarists (guitards) have an ego that they struggle to get through doorways with, others (guitarists) are perfectly normal human beings pretty much like 99.99% of bass players.

 

[Stumbo]

Every so often I play with a multi-instrumentalist at church gigs. It isn't that often that he sits in with the core band.

No matter what you say, he won't change. Since he's not around much, just go about your business and ignore him.

People don't change unless that want to and actually put in the work, especially dealing with other people

He doesn't care what you think or anyone else.

Just curious of what kinda of example he sets for other members of your church? I guess he just like to sit in and not worry about practicing what he learns from the church. Something you might discuss with the director.

I mean, isn't he setting a bad example for all the young members that interact with him? He can say and do whatever he pleases and still gets to sit in? If it was me, he wouldn't be asked back to play until he cleaned up his act.

 

[glocke1]

Isn't it funny how every multi-instrumentalist/jack of all trades out there knows how to play bass better than a real bass player?

I've run into this more often than I care to think about. I'll listen to someones suggestions, and if they are something that makes sense within the context of the song, sounds good, and is something that is technically possible for me to play I'll sometimes incorporate their suggestions, but more often than not I find what others think sounds good does not sound good.

If this is a working band with a defined leader Id bring your concerns to him. Don't confront the guy on your own because chances are you won't be able to get him to change.

 

[Nev375]

Just laugh and say to heck with that. You play the roots, I'm gonna get funky.

 

[delta7fred]

Isn't it funny how every multi-instrumentalist/jack of all trades out there knows how to play bass better than a real bass player?

Couldn't agree more. A friend of mine is a retired pro guitarist/session musician. He now has his own studio and writes and records his own material.

He is of course an excellent guitarist, and keyboard player and a very good drummer. But his bass playing just sucks, big time. I keep offering to put the bass parts down for him and he always says he will call me when he is doing them but never does. Next thing he gives me a CD that is spot on apart from the mediocre bass parts.

He is in a band, their bass player is another multi-instrumentalist. He is primarily a keyboard and fiddle player, very good at both and also plays guitar and bass. His guitar playing is ok and his bass playing is is different to the guy above, adequate but still uninspiring.

Is it just bass players that think this way, it is maybe only us that actually listen to the bass so to everyone else bass is just a necessary evil.

 

[glocke1]

Is it just bass players that think this way, it is maybe only us that actually listen to the bass so to everyone else bass is just a necessary evil.

Thats a good question...I do know that early on when I started listening to music I was really drawn to the bass more so than any other instrument, as a result I grew up really paying attention to what bass players were doing, and as a result I think this helped me to "think" like a bass player.

I try to be patient when people tell me how to play, but more often than not I just get annoyed because their ideas are either not that great, or just don't work.

 

[sonicnuance]

Didn't realize this attitude that multi-instrumentalists have is prevalent, got me thinking.

I consider Tom Scholz from Boston to be a fantastic bass player from that first album they did. At least according to him he played the bass... whoever played the lines I think they are great.

One of the most suprising examples of someone not known for playing bass laying down a great baseline for me is (wait for it...) George Michael on "Freedom". My eyes just about bugged out of my head when I read the liner notes on that one. Great track, super funky.

 

[steveksux]

Sometimes Christians get too caught up in their egos and let it get the better of them, as anyone might, and deviate from their Christian ideals without really realizing it.

In cases like this, sometimes it helps to go back to the basics, maybe even give him a fresh baptism to get back on the right foot.

Link Removed

Randy

 

[steveksux]

Couldn't agree more. A friend of mine is a retired pro guitarist/session musician. He now has his own studio and writes and records his own material.

He is of course an excellent guitarist, and keyboard player and a very good drummer. But his bass playing just sucks, big time. I keep offering to put the bass parts down for him and he always says he will call me when he is doing them but never does. Next thing he gives me a CD that is spot on apart from the mediocre bass parts.

He is in a band, their bass player is another multi-instrumentalist. He is primarily a keyboard and fiddle player, very good at both and also plays guitar and bass. His guitar playing is ok and his bass playing is is different to the guy above, adequate but still uninspiring.

This seems pretty common to me. Actually, that was me at first. I started off playing trumpet. That gave me a much more melodic approach to basss lines. Which more often than not, don't really work all that well... the key to a good bass line is how to complement and lock with the rhythm of the drums, not the rhythm of the melody.

Is it just bass players that think this way, it is maybe only us that actually listen to the bass so to everyone else bass is just a necessary evil.

I think they listen to the bass, they can even learn bass lines note for note, and sound fine in that case.

But that's because they hear the basslines as a melody to copy. Great when they learn a part note for note. But that leaves them essentially 50% clueless as to constructing a good bass line from scratch.

The other thing is they get bored with the same melody all the time through the song. So they often switch between a number of mediocre bass lines through the song. With a good groove, you can play the same line all the way through and drive the song just fine. It becomes almost hypnotic.

That's my theory of why multi-instrumentalists are lousy bassists. They look at the bassline as a song length solo, can't help fiddling around instead of locking with the drummer and keeping it simple and grooving. These are often the guys that like lots of notes in solos. I think the guys that go in for "studio" style solos, more groove than flash, do much better on bass.

Randy

 

[steveksux]

But after the leader told him I'd do my own baselines, he did throw in "its not what's on the chart, but it should be that way" and "I don't know if you heard the recording but the line has more movement than what you were doing".

So remember this line. It is the perfect response, imo. No harm trying his ideas once, listen to it, and say something like "well, it works, there's no wrong notes, but it doesn't have the right feel based on the recording."

I didn't notice you were playing off charts...

Most of the time they simplify charts and leave out lots of tasty bits and nuance. Rhythms are often written on the beat even when there's a laid back or ahead of the beat feel. Too hard to write it exactly, besides they're geared towards amateur musicians. If you want to sound as good as the recording, they're usually just a starting point, or reference. You need to add the feel that isn't on the paper.

Learned that playing big band jazz off charts on trumpet.

 

[glocke1]

This seems pretty common to me. Actually, that was me at first. I started off playing trumpet. That gave me a much more melodic approach to basss lines. Which more often than not, don't really work all that well... the key to a good bass line is how to complement and lock with the rhythm of the drums, not the rhythm of the melody.

I think they listen to the bass, they can even learn bass lines note for note, and sound fine in that case.

But that's because they hear the basslines as a melody to copy. Great when they learn a part note for note. But that leaves them essentially 50% clueless as to constructing a good bass line from scratch.

The other thing is they get bored with the same melody all the time through the song. So they often switch between a number of mediocre bass lines through the song. With a good groove, you can play the same line all the way through and drive the song just fine. It becomes almost hypnotic.

That's my theory of why multi-instrumentalists are lousy bassists. They look at the bassline as a song length solo, can't help fiddling around instead of locking with the drummer and keeping it simple and grooving. These are often the guys that like lots of notes in solos. I think the guys that go in for "studio" style solos, more groove than flash, do much better on bass.

Randy

I agree with all of this.

I've had guitar players that want me to basically double up on their lead or melody line and use that as the bass line...it just doesnt work that way, unless your a prog oriented bass player which I am not.

Just as an aside, and this may actually be material for another thread, I've also noticed that some of my most favorite bass playing is also not the most technical bass playing. Guys like Stanley and Jaco are great players, but Id much rather hear a well thought and constructed bass line in something like a Graham Parsons or Ryan Adams tune.

 

[sonicnuance]

The service went ok, not great.

Let me back up to describe the practice before the service started.
Joe was late, we got through a couple of songs without him... ok, maybe car trouble... dunno. We start playing with him and he's having equipment issues... can happen to anyone.

During practice I implemented several of Joe's ideas (but put my spin on them) and the leader smiled at me during practice. I think the smile was acknowledging that I was taking the high road and he appreciated the gesture. Things were going ok until I did something I normally do with the regular guitarist: I doubled the guitar line on bass to emphasize it before playing the roots the next time around. Joe actually was playing it wrong but I didn't mention it, (I think he heard how I played it and corrected it during the service). The guitarist gave me a look of disapproval - I think if I could have heard him it might have been a growl I smiled and winked back at him. After the song was over he said "he's stepping on my line" at which point the leader said "he's having fun". The leader never had issues with me playing that way with our regular guitarist, it sounded great and I wasn't about to change it. I really lost respect for Joe at his point.

This is the sad part. During service the chemistry wasn't great, (Joe was even late for the first song!... ok maybe nobody told him when we start and he seemed embarrassed). I noticed Joe hadn't sang or played as much during the service. I doubled the guitar on the same section of the one song. At the end of the service when I was saying goodbye I shook his hand and said I enjoyed playing with him (ok maybe not 100% enjoyment, but there were spots where he really did play well and I did enjoy it) and he said, "always a pleasure man, except when you do step on my lines... just kidding ha ha ha" at which point I smiled, shrugged my shoulders in an "oh well" gesture and said bye.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Every so often I play with a multi-instrumentalist at church gigs. It isn't that often that he sits in with the core band. For the sake of argument, let's call him "Joe". Joe is an amazing musician (primarily guitarist) whose instincts are usually correct.

I love listening to Joe play but I often really don't enjoy playing with him. His heart is in the right place but many people don't like his attitude. He knows it and isn't about to change.

The other night the leader (who asked Joe to sit in) had to tell him that I (the bassist) would come up with my own basslines and thanks for the suggestions when Joe told me, "Hey, just just play the roots over these changes". His reply to the leader was a joking, "well you knew what to expect when you asked me in".

I'm looking for suggestions for how to deal with this other than getting angry and giving him a piece of my mind. I don't want it to turn into a "hey, you made a mistake and I don't like what your playing either" response from me. But I can't help but feel stiffled creatively and having to go to the least common denominator of playing only 1/4 note roots for the songs while he noodles (rather nicely) over the songs. I played the way I normally played last night with only minor modifications when I could tell Joe didn't want to deviate from the recordings.

I may confront Joe privately to tell him I love his playing but not playing with him, but I'm not sure what good this will do. I have no illusions that I will change his approach.

Just to give some perspective, I happen to be the best bassist for the team and have played many years with the worship leader who asked me first out of all the members to be a permanent part of the group. Not trying to impress anybody, but I want you to understand that this isn't the case of someone with no experience dealing with the old guard. Also, several people have issues playing with this individual and he has been kicked out of at least one band for his brusk approach. However, just like in anything in life, organizations put up with difficult people if the end result is great... and I think that is what has gotten him by. The band he was kicked out of brought him back for example.

Thanks for listening and I appreciate whatever suggestions you can give.

You may not like my answer, but it isn't about the visiting musician, it's about you managing your own expectations, reactions, and emotions.

When you allow the visiting musician to get under your skin, you're freely giving him power over you. It's a choice you're making, not something he's doing to you.