• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Swapping horn tweeter for dome

iplay5strings

iplay5strings

Aug 10, 2007
1,177
707
Waterford, MI
www.adamsaylorbass.com
#1
Has anyone here ever taken the (most likely foster/compression variant) horn tweeter out of their cab and swapped it for a dome tweeter? I see many high end/boutique cab makers (like accugroove & tecamp) using domes and I see why...they're not as prone to that honking/clicking/brittle sound that most horns have. Is there more to it than just plugging in and mounting the dome tweeter in place of the stock one?
 
#3
seamonkey said:
Keep the horn and turn the treble down.
Click to expand...

That's not ideal. The tweeter is adding artificial high end so subtractive eq to "fix" the harshness of the tweeter means a loss of clarity in your DI signal. I have an Epi PS410 and Epi tweeters have to be one of (if not the) most tolerable ones on the market. Still...on axis more than 10ft away they can get honky, even with the tweeter dialed back.
 
#4
iplay5strings said:
That's not ideal. The tweeter is adding artificial high end so subtractive eq to "fix" the harshness of the tweeter means a loss of clarity in your DI signal. I have an Epi PS410 and Epi tweeters have to be one of (if not the) most tolerable ones on the market. Still...on axis more than 10ft away they can get honky, even with the tweeter dialed back.
Click to expand...
I don't see how a tweeter or any other speaker can add artificial high end to the signal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seamonkey
#5
INTP said:
I don't see how a tweeter or any other speaker can add artificial high end to the signal.
Click to expand...
When it's volume adjustable. If I turn the tweeter all the way up on the cab, it will make everything sound bright even if the original signal isn't. The point being, it's the cab adding that treble to the original signal. So the cab fools you into thinking your tone is super bright (artificially), when in fact it's just the cab that is bright.
 
Last edited:
#6
This is a semantic distinction. Increasing the tweeter L-Pad (or using EQ) will enhance the existing high frequencies, but won't create information that isn't there. Even with an L-Pad, it isn't the tweeter that is adding anything, but rather the L-Pad is interacting with the amplifier to send more signal to the tweeter, which you hear as being brighter.

Timbre is complex, and neither dome tweeters nor horn tweeters are perfectly accurate. If you prefer the imperfection of dome tweeters to the imperfection of horn tweeters, then changing them may make you happy. But you can probably do the same thing with EQ.

If you're worrying about balancing the timbre from your bass rig with that of the F.O.H. then you have even more complexity to deal with.
 
#7
INTP said:
This is a semantic distinction. Increasing the tweeter L-Pad (or using EQ) will enhance the existing high frequencies, but won't create information that isn't there. Even with an L-Pad, it isn't the tweeter that is adding anything, but rather the L-Pad is interacting with the amplifier to send more signal to the tweeter, which you hear as being brighter.

Timbre is complex, and neither dome tweeters nor horn tweeters are perfectly accurate. If you prefer the imperfection of dome tweeters to the imperfection of horn tweeters, then changing them may make you happy. But you can probably do the same thing with EQ.

If you're worrying about balancing the timbre from your bass rig with that of the F.O.H. then you have even more complexity to deal with.
Click to expand...

Right. Now to answer my question. Can I just straight up swap a dome tweeter in the horns place?
 
#9
The tweeter in an engineered cab is not adding artificial highs. It's just reproducing what is already in the signal chain.

Regarding the matching the tweeters output to the rest of the cab, it all depends on how the tweeter's efficiency rating matches the rest of the drivers, IE, if the woofer is 98dB, and the tweet is 105dB, the tweeter has to be padded back 7dB to be flat (Padding is the term used for resistive circuitry used in a crossover to attenuate the signal). In our illustration, running the tweet full out with no padding will render the frequency spectrum covered by the tweeter 7dB to high. A properly designed crossover will have that padding done via fixed resistors in the crossover circuitry. Then the L Pad (variable resistor) on the back of the cab is an added bonus. It takes it from that flat position down to off.

Putting in a dome is more than a plug and play situation. The new tweeter has to be spec'd properly, and the crossover has to be designed for it. You will have to gain some knowledge in speaker building if you want your endeavor to be successful.
 
Last edited:
#10
INTP said:
Have you compared the efficiency, impedance, power handling, and response graphs?
Click to expand...

That's somewhat hard to do since Epifani is not forth coming on releasing the detailed specs of their stuff. All I know about the Epi (horn) tweeter is that it's 100 watts and (allegedly) has the HPF set somewhere around 6 Khz (the 10" drivers are left full-range with no crossover).
 
#11
Coolhandjjl said:
The tweeter in an engineered cab is not adding artificial highs. It's just reproducing what is already in the signal chain.

Regarding the matching the tweeters output to the rest of the cab, it all depends on how the tweeter's efficiency rating matches the rest of the drivers, IE, if the woofer is 98dB, and the tweet is 105dB, the tweeter has to be padded back 7dB in to be flat (Padding is the term used for resistive circuitry used in a crossover to attenuate the signal). In our illustration, running the tweet full out with no padding will render the frequency spectrum covered by the tweeter 7dB to high. a properly designed crossover will have that padding done via fixed resistors in the crossover circuitry. Then the L Pad (variable resisitor) on the back of the cab is an added bonus. It takes it from that flat position down to off.

Putting in a dome is more than a plug and play. The new tweeter has to be spec'd properly, and the crossover has to be designed for it.
Click to expand...
Thank you, this is all I was after.
 
#12
iplay5strings said:
That's somewhat hard to do since Epifani is not forth coming on releasing the detailed specs of their stuff. All I know about the Epi (horn) tweeter is that it's 100 watts and (allegedly) has the HPF set somewhere around 6 Khz (the 10" drivers are left full-range with no crossover).
Click to expand...

Most cab manufacturers are like that. Why make it easy for someone to steal their designs. Even the components like the drivers may be custom variants not available for purchase by the public.

6k sounds high. I can see the 10" rolling off naturally at 2.5~3Khz with no low pass. That is known as an acoustic crossover. The the tweet can be high passed at 3kHz or if the designer wants overlap, he can bring it down a bit, alter the slope, do whatever he wants given the tweeters specs and how it interacts with the woofer. But no woofs I know go up to 6kHz, so if that number is true, it is an incredibly scooped sounding cab (which is not unheard of).
 
#13
Coolhandjjl said:
Most cab manufacturers are like that. Why make it easy for someone to steal their designs. Even the components like the drivers may be custom variants not available for purchase by the public.

6k sounds high. I can see the 10" rolling off naturally at 2.5~3Khz with no low pass. That is known as an acoustic crossover. The the tweet can be high passed at 3kHz or if the designer wants overlap, he can bring it down a bit, alter the slope, do whatever he wants given the tweeters specs and how it interacts with the woofer. But no woofs I know go up to 6kHz, so if that number is true, it is an incredibly scooped sounding cab (which is not unheard of).
Click to expand...

Well I know the SWR Goliath cab HPF's were set at 5 Khz for their horns. So the fact that Epifani tweeters are known for sounding "more airy" lines up with them being HPF'd even higher than the SWR's as that would naturally scoop even more high mids. I owned 2 SWR GIII 410 cabs b4 switching to my Epi stuff and those were WAY honky compared to the Epi. Off axis the SWR cabs sounded great, but the moment I stood within the tweet's throw it sounded awful (for the tone I like, I'm sure it works great for pick/rock guys).
 
Last edited:
#14
410's have things going on that make for uneven dispersion, all unrelated to the tweeter. Small woofers and beaming for one. Also, side by side woofers going up to 3kHz create comb filtering. There are some recent threads on .5 aligning 410s that have lots of good info on them.

BTW, my GB 410 Uber is crossed at 3kHz and has no honkiness. In fact, that cab is reported to have the least amount of honk of all 410's. But it's more than just the tweeter. It's the entire design.
 
#16
Coolhandjjl said:
410's have things going on that make for uneven dispersion, all unrelated to the tweeter. Small woofers and beaming for one. Also, side by side woofers going up to 3kHz create comb filtering. There are some recent threads on .5 aligning 410s that have lots of good info on them.

BTW, my GB 410 Uber is crossed at 3kHz and has no honkiness. In fact, that cab is reported to have the least amount of honk of all 410's. But it's more than just the tweeter. It's the entire design.
Click to expand...

I almost grabbed an Uber 610 when it showed up at a local music go round. They're one of the few non-boutique cabs left that still go down into the mid 30Hz arena for 5 string players like me (who also tunes a whole step down across the whole instrument). I just never got a chance to check it out.
 
#19
Good cab. Four ohms, and will outperform a 410. Consider building it as a pair of 12/6 cabs as an option.
I built a pair of 15/6s, but I never needed that much, so I sold one. The smarter build for me would have been a pair of 12/6 cabs. Lighter to carry, and the option to use one for small gigs, and then bring both for the big gigs.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: carvinbassplyr

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back