Synth on multis compared to standalone?

[logdrum]

For the multi effects users. who use or used standalone units like the C4, Future Impact or the new MXR What is your take on the performance of multi effect units synth simulations.

Pitch tracking filter (this is a big thing and how many do they offer) oscillators quality and design, LFOs and other extra features. Interaction like ability to maybe play with the cutoff or filter during performance and of course sound.

Which ones do you like - Helix family, Headrush and siblings, Quad Cortex, Anagram, Boss, Zoom (I only know the MS60 and frankly it is a toy which can have use), Hotone and inexpensive MIC units, Fender Tone master pro if they offer one or anything else, MOD devices.

Do you still prefer a standalone unit for you synth needs. Do you have up stream tricks effects like using compressors or EQs. On mulit's do you see performance issues if you use synth modules

My only multi experience frankly is the Zoom MS60B+ . The H90 although capable is really only 2 algorithms. I just got the Pi-Stomp ( like an open source MOD device) and still figuring it out and always hesitated to get the Stomp. Pretty experience with analog synths and modular (have a small Eurorackas well ) --- So if you have experience likewise, I am curious of your thoughts on these. Obviously a C4 fan and now also the Meris EnzoX

Thanks in advance.

Poll added to save time but I'd appreciate if you could share your experiences and opinions.

 

[doubleohnodj]

Been down the road with almost all of these, and Fractal is the winner for me - the most modular workflow of the bunch with the deepest options, and rewards critical thinking and problem solving to get a sound where you want it to be.

 

[drpepper]

I realize that I’m not in the target group for your question (not a multi AND standalone user), but I think there’s going to be a high degree of variability based on a number of factors, an important one being how much you actually need synth bass sounds. Anyway, your mention of Zoom as your only experience overlaps with my situation, so...

I’m primarily a weekend cover band player, and I recently moved from the Zoom B2 Four (and the B3 before that) to the Anagram. For me, having a multi has mostly been about having DI, some tone shaping and amp/cab sims, with a little song-specific FX color sprinkled in here and there in one box.

With regard to synth specifically, I’m hoping (along with others) that a synth block comes in a future update. That said, many of the elements that go into building synth sounds are already there. There’s also some good coverage of the subject by @Quincas Moreira (aka Bass Fox) on YouTube.

Back to my own situation and the Zoom...I haven’t had enough need to personally justify a standalone synth pedal, but I am finding that my song-specific use (or at least desire) is increasing, and I can realistically see that continuing. As for the Zoom effects, I had a gig last year with a high profile artist and wanted to cop the Sledgehammer sound. While it’s not strictly speaking a synth bass part, there’s definitely some crossover in the elements involved. I had always played that song clean, and I did that night as well, because I was asked not to use the Zoom preset I had come up with. What that drove home for me was that, depending on context, the Zoom effects really weren’t up to snuff, and that's what was really limiting my use of them to just the very basics. Going beyond the basics in this case (octave, chorus, envelope), the issue was overtones that made someone with a critical ear stop and say, “That’s bothering me, turn it off.” I suspect a lot of that comes down to tracking quality.

The Anagram has been great so far (even if certain sounds can be challenging to tweak at my level of understanding of the parameters), and that’s true even without a dedicated synth block. At my level of need (a handful of songs that ultimately can be done with or without), I don’t really see myself going beyond the Anagram, even if a synth block never materializes.

 

[Quincas Moreira]

I realize that I’m not in the target group for your question (not a multi AND standalone user), but I think there’s going to be a high degree of variability based on a number of factors, an important one being how much you actually need synth bass sounds. Anyway, your mention of Zoom as your only experience overlaps with my situation, so...

I’m primarily a weekend cover band player, and I recently moved from the Zoom B2 Four (and the B3 before that) to the Anagram. For me, having a multi has mostly been about having DI, some tone shaping and amp/cab sims, with a little song-specific FX color sprinkled in here and there in box.

With regard to synth specifically, I’m hoping (along with others) that a synth block comes in a future update. That said, many of the elements that go into building synth sounds are already there. There’s also some good coverage of the subject by @Quincas Moreira (aka Bass Fox) on YouTube.

Back to my own situation and the Zoom...I haven’t had enough need to personally justify a standalone synth pedal, but I am finding that my song-specific use (or at least desire) is increasing, and I can realistically see that continuing. As for the Zoom effects, I had a gig last year with a high profile artist and wanted to cop the Sledgehammer sound. While it’s not strictly speaking a synth bass part, there’s definitely some crossover in the elements involved. I had always played that song clean, and I did that night as well, because I was asked not to use the Zoom preset I had come up with. What that drove home for me was that, depending on context, the Zoom effects really weren’t up to snuff, and that's what was really limiting my use of them to just the very basics. Going beyond the basics in this case (octave, chorus, envelope), the issue was overtones that made someone with a critical ear stop and say, “That’s bothering me, turn it off.” I suspect a lot of that comes down to tracking quality.

The Anagram has been great so far (even if certain sounds can be challenging to tweak at my level of understanding of the parameters), and that’s true even without a dedicated synth block. At my level of need (a handful of songs that ultimately can be done with or without), I don’t really see myself going beyond the Anagram, even if a synth block never materializes.

Thanks for the Shout out Dr!

 

[logdrum]

I realize that I’m not in the target group for your question (not a multi AND standalone user), but I think there’s going to be a high degree of variability based on a number of factors, an important one being how much you actually need synth bass sounds. Anyway, your mention of Zoom as your only experience overlaps with my situation, so...

I’m primarily a weekend cover band player, and I recently moved from the Zoom B2 Four (and the B3 before that) to the Anagram. For me, having a multi has mostly been about having DI, some tone shaping and amp/cab sims, with a little song-specific FX color sprinkled in here and there in box.

With regard to synth specifically, I’m hoping (along with others) that a synth block comes in a future update. That said, many of the elements that go into building synth sounds are already there. There’s also some good coverage of the subject by @Quincas Moreira (aka Bass Fox) on YouTube.

Back to my own situation and the Zoom...I haven’t had enough need to personally justify a standalone synth pedal, but I am finding that my song-specific use (or at least desire) is increasing, and I can realistically see that continuing. As for the Zoom effects, I had a gig last year with a high profile artist and wanted to cop the Sledgehammer sound. While it’s not strictly speaking a synth bass part, there’s definitely some crossover in the elements involved. I had always played that song clean, and I did that night as well, because I was asked not to use the Zoom preset I had come up with. What that drove home for me was that, depending on context, the Zoom effects really weren’t up to snuff, and that's what was really limiting my use of them to just the very basics. Going beyond the basics in this case (octave, chorus, envelope), the issue was overtones that made someone with a critical ear stop and say, “That’s bothering me, turn it off.” I suspect a lot of that comes down to tracking quality.

The Anagram has been great so far (even if certain sounds can be challenging to tweak at my level of understanding of the parameters), and that’s true even without a dedicated synth block. At my level of need (a handful of songs that ultimately can be done with or without), I don’t really see myself going beyond the Anagram, even if a synth block never materializes.

I appreciate your input. This is good

 

[logdrum]

Been down the road with almost all of these, and Fractal is the winner for me - the most modular workflow of the bunch with the deepest options, and rewards critical thinking and problem solving to get a sound where you want it to be.

Thanks. My friend D a guitar player is a Fractal users for a long time now. But I've never hear him set up synth modules. = more ambient oriented setups I'll ask him next time

 

[drpepper]

Thanks for the Shout out Dr!

Anyone on using an Anagram, especially with interest in synth sounds should check you out IMO

 

[sunbeast]

For the multi effects users. who use or used standalone units like the C4, Future Impact or the new MXR What is your take on the performance of multi effect units synth simulations.

Pitch tracking filter (this is a big thing and how many do they offer) oscillators quality and design, LFOs and other extra features. Interaction like ability to maybe play with the cutoff or filter during performance and of course sound.

Which ones do you like - Helix family, Headrush and siblings, Quad Cortex, Anagram, Boss, Zoom (I only know the MS60 and frankly it is a toy which can have use), Hotone and inexpensive MIC units, Fender Tone master pro if they offer one or anything else, MOD devices.

Do you still prefer a standalone unit for you synth needs. Do you have up stream tricks effects like using compressors or EQs. On mulit's do you see performance issues if you use synth modules

My only multi experience frankly is the Zoom MS60B+ . The H90 although capable is really only 2 algorithms. I just got the Pi-Stomp ( like an open source MOD device) and still figuring it out and always hesitated to get the Stomp. Pretty experience with analog synths and modular (have a small Eurorackas well ) --- So if you have experience likewise, I am curious of your thoughts on these. Obviously a C4 fan and now also the Meris EnzoX

Thanks in advance.

Poll added to save time but I'd appreciate if you could share your experiences and opinions.

I was going to mention the H90. I suspect the H90 Polysynth is using a sort of wave-modeling algorithm for the synths like what Boss uses in their SY pedals given how fast and easy it tracks (and also how relatively limited the settings are). The fact that latency doesn’t seem to increase as you play lower is a good sign that this is the case.

The Boss SY1000 is a multieffect too, with most if not all of the effects from the Boss GP-10 inside that can be applied to your clean signal and/or synth signals as well as some amp sims and pretty versatile routing options. It works best when used with a hex pickup with 13-pin input and has poly pitch-tracking synth options available with the 13-pin input while the mono input will only give you the polyphonic wave modeling synth options that the other SY pedals have. The pitch-tracking synths sound great in the SY-1000, but suffer from quite a bit of latency with bass compared to the Future Impact v4 for example, maybe along the lines of the C4 or a bit slower. For bass I mostly use the wave-modeling synth engines to avoid the latency, but they are pretty great sounding for me and the polyphony makes them particularly nice. The character is different than the H90, I like them both quite a bit.

Synth options in the Helix can be cool, but are pretty limited compared to the standalones or things like the SY1000. I would have written my Stomp off for bass synth sounds if someone on TB hadn’t pointed out some videos of the bassist from Submotion Orchestra, where he apparently for several years used only a Helix for synth tones and sounds great. I feel like some of the best synth sounds come from creating a virtual analog synth chain (octaver-drive-filter) though the legacy effects section has some useful dedicated synth options that the bassist I mentioned uses at times. I find the filters maybe the biggest limitation for synthy sounds in the Helix- you mostly just have Mutron-type envelope options with a couple of other quirky left-field options.

All that said, none of the multis I’ve tried (I’ve not tried the Fractal stuff FWIW, if I was relying on an in-ear rig I might start there from what I’ve heard) come close to the tracking or sound palette of the Future Impact v4 or the versatility of the C4. Having the main developer of the Future Impact focused so heavily into improving a single product with a specific purpose really has its benefits. No doubt the teams involved at Neural DSP, Line 6, Eventide, Boss, etc would all be capable of making really powerful synth algorithms, but they are all spread much thinner designing multitudes of other products and features and I feel like synths are not nearly as important to the guitarists who are their main customer base. I feel like (based on the timeline of products like the C4 and FI) the amount of processing required for a great tracking synth engine is also pretty hefty, which can make them taxing in a multi (look at how much of the available DSP good poly pitchshifters eat up in a Helix or even in a Quad Cortex), even a mono synth with the amount of features in a C4 or FI is just going to eat up a lot of DSP. The guy behind the Future Impact has also been on the vanguard of the pitch to MIDI/ pitchtracking world (Axon, Yamaha, Akai, Fishman TriplePlay, etc) for 30 years at this point which is pretty cool, and keeps improving the tracking and options in the FI (FM synth engine is coming in a month or so!).

 

[coyote1]

I’ve recently lost my taste for bass synth effects. They simply never deliver what even an inexpensive keyboard can offer.

 

[sawzalot]

I've tried many bass synth presets on my Line6 HX Stomp XL. They're nowhere near as flexible as a dedicated synth pedal like the C4. Simpler, yes, but nowhere near as capable. The downside of the standalone pedals is learning curve and programming time, but that's the nature of synthesis.

 

[erratick]

I’ve recently lost my taste for bass synth effects. They simply never deliver what even an inexpensive keyboard can offer.

Yup. Bass synth effects are mostly meh. Some are Okay. Dedicated, multi, whatever. They're fine. Get one, use it. You can make it funky. They are a sound. It's a different animal.

But I'm constantly amazed that this forum will quibble over various P pickups and then think a pedal is going to turn their bass into a synth.

I'm gonna go goof around with the moog.

 

[PeaveyPlayer]

Still looking for that moog bass
And 808 sound in a pedal

 

[Iristone]

Hotone

As much as I love Hotone for their other effects, my gripe with them is that they don't come with good pitch shifters and no synth at all - there are filters but no oscillators.

 

[ValerieK]

SY-1000 is a beast that can pretty much do it all.

 

[pb9717]

you're talkin my languge, I just moved from a full board of individual effects to a stomp HX. One of my prior pedals being a Future Impact V3.

The stomp is a great pedal, but it cannot compare to a dedicated synth. I sold my V3 and all my other stuff and got a Future Impact V4 VIP. I am waiting with baited breathe for the 4.5 software to come. But the HX, the MXR cannot hold a candle to the FI.

Multi's are great, but they are weak as synths.

 

[W_R]

I was highly intrigued by synth effects for bass and guitar, still have options in the Helix, have had the EHX pedals, Deep Impact, and there was a surprisingly good synth feature in an old Line 6 Lowdown bass combo I had. Fun and sometimes perfectly capable.

That said, I think the most effective/reliable option might either be

1. a combo of generously applied “regular effects” (overdrive, octave, filter) to resemble a synth. The Helix obviously has those regular effects and some synth effects too, try it all, mix it together etc. I have been querying Gemini AI to suggest Helix patch settings to make certain sounds and it has come through with some very cool results.

2. or make the full leap to an actual keyboard/synth. In future months, I will have more time for this as well. Cost-wise, plenty of inexpensive synth/keyboard options available to start on.

Run your questions and thoughts through Gemini or ChatGPT and see what it comes up with. I’d be curious to hear where that takes you

 

[Iristone]

Another option is a MIDI pickup by Roland, Cycfi, etc., and sending the MIDI signal to a regular synth. I'm thinking that such an individual-string pickup can also be configured into a polyphonic analogue octaver, with increased stability by placing it close to the neck?

 

[logdrum]

I’ve recently lost my taste for bass synth effects. They simply never deliver what even an inexpensive keyboard can offer.

I agree somewhat...But the Meris EnzoX can be drive by a MIDI keyboard and the 4 bknobs can be performance tools like the filter knob or tune knob on synths and at the same time still respond to the instrument plug to it

Also bass synth is for bass players who cannot play keyboards. It is also a different kind of playing even if it is underwhelming.

 

[coyote1]

you're talkin my languge, …..I sold my V3 and all my other stuff and got a Future Impact V4 VIP. I am waiting with baited breath

 

[GotGroove]

Also bass synth is for bass players who cannot play keyboards

Wasn't it the other way around? keyboard players who can't play bass?