Double Bass Tailgut Replacement

[Matthew Tucker]

Depending on the amount of friction, the pitch of the after-length will be higher or lower for the same length.

Not sure i understand that logic, Bob. I can understand that friction might cause uneven tension along the string after retuning, but i would have thought that a short time after a bit of playing that tension would normally even out, particularly as you put graphite in your bridge slots.

Seems more likely that differences in string gauge and string angle over the bridge is more likely to alter tension, hence pitch.

Of course, if you use a compensating tailpiece a la Pecanic, the 1/6 rule means little anyway.

FWIW, Thomastik says use 8 1/4" afterlength for its strings

 

[Bob Branstetter]

Not sure i understand that logic, Bob. I can understand that friction might cause uneven tension along the string after retuning, but i would have thought that a short time after a bit of playing that tension would normally even out, particularly as you put graphite in your bridge slots.

Seems more likely that differences in string gauge and string angle over the bridge is more likely to alter tension, hence pitch.

Of course, if you use a compensating tailpiece a la Pecanic, the 1/6 rule means little anyway.

FWIW, Thomastik says use 8 1/4" after-length for its strings

I thought about adding string gauge and angle to the equation, but I wanted to keep it half way simple. My comment was really directed at Ken's statement about the 2 octave and a 4th being equivalent to the 1/6 rule. Regardless of the reason, the 1/6 rule has been around a long time and AFAIC, it is just as good as any of the dozen or so interval tunings that have been suggested for the after-length.

Compensating tailpieces are another ball of wax. How much compensation is enough, too little or too much? Like with after-length tuning, I believe that psychoacoustics plays a significant role in any perceived improvement in the sound.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Yes you can spend hours fiddling with tailpiece/afterlength for little appreciable gain. There are so many other things that contribute to the sound. I agree with Ken that the "feel" of a longer or shorter afterlength is one thing that is quite noticeable. And that might affect how you play, too, with another change in sound output!!

 

[Bob Branstetter]

Yes you can spend hours fiddling with tailpiece/afterlength for little appreciable gain. There are so many other things that contribute to the sound. I agree with Ken that the "feel" of a longer or shorter afterlength is one thing that is quite noticeable. And that might affect how you play, too, with another change in sound output!!

You'll get no argument from me about the after-length changing the "feel". However, it's quite possible that the after-length that "feels" the best may not be the one that sounds the best. The sad fact is that some people get hung up trying to find the ultimate after-length or the ultimate soundpost position, or the the ultimate strings, endpin, tailpiece, Ad nauseam... for a gain of (at best) 1 or 2%. IMO, it would be far more productive for them to spend that time working on improving their playing skills. That's the best way I know to improve any bass

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

You'll get no argument from me about the after-length changing the "feel". However, it's quite possible that the after-length that "feels" the best may not be the one that sounds the best. The sad fact is that some people get hung up trying to find the ultimate after-length or the ultimate soundpost position, or the the ultimate strings, endpin, tailpiece, Ad nauseam... for a gain of (at best) 1 or 2%. IMO, it would be far more productive for them to spend that time working on improving their playing skills. That's the best way I know to improve any bass

I moved the TP on my Martini up only once. After I noticed and liked the difference, I left it alone. My Gilkes was just let up an inch or so as well. The tip was always down over the saddle but felt tight. I measured and moved it up closed to that 1/6th rule and there is was 2 n a 4th. It felt looser and deeper as well by 1-2%..lol .. After two weeks when the cable settled in the clamp set screws, it went a lil sharp to a b5th. I am not touching it. It feels and sounds just fine. It is also in nearly perfect 4ths. I think that 1/6th rule mathematically is that 2 n a 4th pitch. Where the string comes off the TP is important for the intonation as well. Neither my Martini nor the Gilkes has that Ebony Fret under the strings over the holes. Neither is Ebony either. Both of these could easily be original to the Bass so I am not looking to change them.

 

[Bob Branstetter]

I moved the TP on my Martini up only once. After I noticed and liked the difference, I left it alone. My Gilkes was just let up an inch or so as well. The tip was always down over the saddle but felt tight. I measured and moved it up closed to that 1/6th rule and there is was 2 n a 4th. It felt looser and deeper as well by 1-2%..lol .. After two weeks when the cable settled in the clamp set screws, it went a lil sharp to a b5th. I am not touching it. It feels and sounds just fine. It is also in nearly perfect 4ths. I think that 1/6th rule mathematically is that 2 n a 4th pitch. Where the string comes off the TP is important for the intonation as well. Neither my Martini nor the Gilkes has that Ebony Fret under the strings over the holes. Neither is Ebony either. Both of these could easily be original to the Bass so I am not looking to change them.

It would be mathematically valid only if all things were equal and you are "stopping" the string. Things like unequal diameter and density of the string (the silk wrapping and tieback), friction over the bridge, bridge angle, and the weight and length of the tailpiece and probably other factors, all contribute to the pitch of the afterlength. If the 2 octave and a 4th were true for the 1/6th rule, then every single bass with this ratio should be 2 octave and a 4th (I can assure you that they are not.)

 

[martinc]

Bob Branstetter wrote:".....IMO, it would be far more productive for them to spend that time working on improving their playing skills. That's the best way I know to improve any bass."

Bob:
Makes sense to me.
When I put on my new tailpiece recently, I looked at as many old bass photos as I could find to see where the tip of the tailpiece was in relation to the saddle. Most were close to the same place.
Thats where I put mine.
I'm still trying to find the time to improve my playing skills but one thing I did find out after I made the change.....the new composite tailpiece and cord ( or maybe the photos!) sure opened up the sound of my bass.

 

[lhoward]

Not sure i understand that logic, Bob. I can understand that friction might cause uneven tension along the string after retuning, but i would have thought that a short time after a bit of playing that tension would normally even out, particularly as you put graphite in your bridge slots.

Seems more likely that differences in string gauge and string angle over the bridge is more likely to alter tension, hence pitch.

Of course, if you use a compensating tailpiece a la Pecanic, the 1/6 rule means little anyway.

FWIW, Thomastik says use 8 1/4" afterlength for its strings

Interesting. There's nothing on TI's site about such a recommendation that I can find. How did you come across this and what did they specifically say its supposed to do?

Lloyd Howard

 

[Matthew Tucker]

It is in on their website, I saw it, somewhere in the FAQs on how to string a bass.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Yup, I just found that. 8 1/4" for "full-size instruments", whatever they are.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

They're also recommending a string height of 9.5 MM for the G string!

 

[lhoward]

Yup, I just found that. 8 1/4" for "full-size instruments", whatever they are.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

They're also recommending a string height of 9.5 MM for the G string!

I found that reference earlier today. Thanks.

I just finished some work a week ago on a 7/8 I've had for twenty-five years - fitted a new end-peg, did some work on the fingerboard, installed a 1/8" synthetic fiber hangar cord (Samson AmSteel 1/8" cord from go2marine.com), put a new set of Spirocores on (4/4 strings and the bass has a 43 7/8" string length) and reset the sound post.

To satisfy curiosity, I measured the after length and it was almost exactly 8 1/4" (not intentional). The bass has been settling in for the past week as I play it each day and the sound is mellowing out, but its got significantly more volume and a deeper quality than before (it had a brass TP hanger and the TP is fairly light). The string height on this bass is about 8.5 mm on the G, and about 11 mm on the E. I'm looking forward to playing it on a gig next week.

Lloyd Howard

 

[robobass]

installed a 1/8" synthetic fiber hangar cord (Samson AmSteel 1/8" cord from go2marine.com)

Thanks for that tip. I prefer the aircraft cable/clamp myself, but synthetic is the trend. Has anyone had problems? I had a Velvet installed on my 5-String and it failed. It said in the info that it would stretch for a few days. Well, it kept stretching and stretching. The bass was always a half step lower each morning, and after about 10 days it just came apart. I watched my guy install it and can't imagine that he did anything wrong. The thing was expensive too!
Robobass

 

[Bob Branstetter]

Thanks for that tip. I prefer the aircraft cable/clamp myself, but synthetic is the trend. Has anyone had problems? I had a Velvet installed on my 5-String and it failed. It said in the info that it would stretch for a few days. Well, it kept stretching and stretching. The bass was always a half step lower each morning, and after about 10 days it just came apart. I watched my guy install it and can't imagine that he did anything wrong. The thing was expensive too!
Robobass

I've had similar experience with both customers who have installed them as well as my own personal experience. I still prefer to use 3/32" stainless steel aircraft cable with Nicopress clamps. I've never had a failure in over 40 years. However, I do have a few customers who have had no problems with the synthetics. Same material. Same knots.

 

[bonaventura]

I need to change my tailgut from the hanger wire that is there currently, to either the nylon, or aircraft cable, but am cofused as to which would work with my tailpiece.

the synthetic tailpiece cords can be inexpensive too. Jonas Lohse sent me one for about $10, but the Velvet was a bit overpriced.

they are said to be as strong as or stronger than the aircraft cable and permit the tailpiece to vibrate more freely (= more volume). what is the advantage of the aircraft cable?

you can install the synthetic yourself without any clamps at all, just a good ol square knot.

... synthetic is the trend. Has anyone had problems? I had a Velvet installed on my 5-String and it failed. It said in the info that it would stretch for a few days. Well, it kept stretching and stretching. The bass was always a half step lower each morning, and after about 10 days it just came apart. I watched my guy install it and can't imagine that he did anything wrong. The thing was expensive too!
Robobass

i've not had that problem. i installed one on each of my basses (Lohse on one, Velvet on the other), and both were an improvement over a steel cable.

but was your Velvet string defective? the only thing i can imagine was your guy didn't tie the right knot (was not a Boy Scout), and the knot he tied was slipping.

 

[martinc]

As a sidebar to this thread......when I installed my Witner composite tailpiece on my Eberle ply, I used the Pecanic tailgut. The Witner has two sets of holes on the back, one set above the other, to thread the tailgut through. I used the two levels of holes when I first installed it but since then I noticed lots of vibrations on open strings and various other squeaky noises.
This week I tried adjusting the afterlength..and also just used the lower set of holes for the tailgut. This shortened the length of tailgut to around 1 3/4 inches. Quite a difference. Clearer sound with no loss of bass...and no vibrations or overtones so far.
The afterlength ended up just about where it was before so I am attributing the improvement to the "looser" tailpiece.

 

[lhoward]

I've had similar experience with both customers who have installed them as well as my own personal experience. I still prefer to use 3/32" stainless steel aircraft cable with Nicopress clamps. I've never had a failure in over 40 years. However, I do have a few customers who have had no problems with the synthetics. Same material. Same knots.

As a follow-up, I have to agree with Robobass that I've had some continued stretch of the cable after the initial week or so of significant stretching. Although I've not had the knot separate (yet), I do find the strings have continued to detune a small amount and I have to tune up each time I play it.

I'm considering using either 3/32" or 1/8" stainless cable as a replacement, but would like to know what Nicopress clamps you used. They make clamps from three different materials: copper, aluminum and stainless steel ( Invalid Link Removed ). Also, what tool did you use to crimp the clamps with. There are hand-held, bench-mounted and pneumatic tools ( [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] ). I've found the hand-held crimping tool at Home Depot for about $30.

Its been about 5 weeks since I put on the synthetic cable but don't really feel comfortable with this slow detuning problem. I could probably experiment with it, but I really don't have the inclination for continued experimentation; I need to feel confident that the instrument is stable so I can play without being distracted.

Lloyd Howard

 

[Bob Branstetter]

I'm considering using either 3/32" or 1/8" stainless cable as a replacement, but would like to know what Nicopress clamps you used. They make clamps from three different materials: copper, aluminum and stainless steel ( Invalid Link Removed ). Also, what tool did you use to crimp the clamps with. There are hand-held, bench-mounted and pneumatic tools ( [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] ). I've found the hand-held crimping tool at Home Depot for about $30.

I use the stainless steel clamps, but any of them would probably be more than strong enough for this application. The crimping tool from Home Depot (or Loews) is what I use. It's only drawback is that you have to make multiple passes (usually 3) with that crimping tool. The Nicopress tool does the crimping in one pass and the finished clamp looks a little better, but not enough better for me to justify the additional cost of the Nicopress brand crimping tool.