Double Bass Tailpiece material vs. size for mode matching

[bssist]

Traeger says that ebony is the best material for the tailpiece. Although I haven't read cover to cover yet I have seen no explanation of why. He also says that for mode matching a 1/2 size tailpiece can be used. Does anybody know if that statement is about mass or tailgut length? Would a 3/4 maple tailpiece perhaps be suitable, or is there magic in the smaller ebony tailpiece?

Thanks for any enlightenment you can pass my way.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

For mode-matching, I find that most basses want a much lighter tailpiece than you can make using ebony, or even rosewood for that matter. Maple and pear are pretty common tailpiece woods on older basses. Cherry's good, walnut's nice too.

 

[bssist]

Thank you much!

 

[Daniel Baskin]

I'm interested in fitting a heavier and/or thicker bridge and tailpiece in order to control some of the zingy-ness of my bass. I use spirocores, so I know that changing those would help the problem, but I really prefer the tone I can get out of them for both arco and pizz, so I would rather get the darkness of tone from the heavier setup.

You say that mode matching typically requires a lighter tailpiece. Is it possible to mode match by going far in the other direction (heavier)?

 

[powerbass]

I'm interested in fitting a heavier and/or thicker bridge and tailpiece in order to control some of the zingy-ness of my bass. I use spirocores, so I know that changing those would help the problem, but I really prefer the tone I can get out of them for both arco and pizz, so I would rather get the darkness of tone from the heavier setup.

You say that mode matching typically requires a lighter tailpiece. Is it possible to mode match by going far in the other direction (heavier)?

I'm curious to hear opinions about this as well. When I practice with my mute on the bridge I kinda like the way the bass sounds - deeper, thumpier.

 

[james condino]

For real world results, it is a bit all over the place in terms of tailpiece mass and proportions. Some basses seem to sound a lot better with small lightweight tailpieces and others want one that is very large and heavy. I keep a half dozen of different sizes and mass around the shop for folks that want to be able to try them out and test the differences.

I'll usually set them over in one corner of the shop, give them some tools and a pile of tailpieces and then let them have at it for the biggest challenge- unwinding and rewinding all the strings six times in a single afternoon to test the results!

If you REALLY want to dive into things, join us at Oberlin for the acoustics and bass nerdfest in early June!

j.

 

[Jazzdogg]

For real world results, it is a bit all over the place in terms of tailpiece mass and proportions. Some basses seem to sound a lot better with small lightweight tailpieces and others want one that is very large and heavy. I keep a half dozen of different sizes and mass around the shop for folks that want to be able to try them out and test the differences.

I'll usually set them over in one corner of the shop, give them some tools and a pile of tailpieces and then let them have at it for the biggest challenge- unwinding and rewinding all the strings six times in a single afternoon to test the results!

If you REALLY want to dive into things, join us at Oberlin for the acoustics and bass nerdfest in early June!

j.

I'd sure appreciate it if you would elaborate a little more on the ways in which changing tailpieces can effect the way a DB sounds, and any other implications of mode matching upon which you'd care to expound.

BTW, Thoroughly enjoyed your article in the latest issue of American Lutherie, and I'm looking forward to the next installment

 

[robobass]

James, That's so much work! How about taking a light "test" TP and making it even lighter by boring a bunch of big holes in it. Have the customer put it on his bass, and then start gradually plugging the holes with some brass plugs or something until he finds the magic number. That would also eliminate other variables from the experiment. Just a thought

 

[iiipopes]

I'm interested in fitting a heavier and/or thicker bridge and tailpiece in order to control some of the zingy-ness of my bass. I use spirocores, so I know that changing those would help the problem, but I really prefer the tone I can get out of them for both arco and pizz, so I would rather get the darkness of tone from the heavier setup.

Which set of Spiros do you use? If you are using S42 4/4 Weich set, there are at least four other sets in progressively higher mass at both 3/4 (3885 set) and 4/4 (S42) at Weich, Mittel and Stark tensions that you might consider. More mass usually means more fundamental, and the added tension can change the tonal balance and response of the bass, although they might be a tad more difficult arco until you get used to drawing the heavier strings.

 

[james condino]

Thanks for the nice words about the current article. I use Spiro Starks- that's a lotta' string to pull by the third set!

As a disclaimer, I'm posting this response as a direct response to a specific question above, not in an attempt for aggrandizing self promotion trying to violate any forum rules.

Rob:

It does take time and your forearms are pumped for the rest of the day after changing strings six times! On my own tailpieces, I enlarge the string eyelet hole so that you can just pop them in and out through the hole and don't have to completely unwind strings from the tuner shaft and pull them out of the tailpiece hole; 'just seems to make sense and I don't understand why they are not all made that way. Quick changes on a gig for a broken string go faster too!

Funny you mention the tailpiece with big holes; here is the one I use on the lightweight end of things, shown with a larger kevlar tailwire that I was testing out and no longer use:

There are a couple of other tailpiece styles I use in the gallery here:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

All of these have been posted here in the past.
You can take a lightweight one like this and progressively add metal C clamps to it or some other weight to test out the increased mass effects, but I generally feel like more mass of actual ebony or real wood is more realistic than a big chunk -o - hardware store metal. I'll also occasionally have a "massless" version that is similar to a Marvin wire tailpiece that goes to the far end of the minimalist side of things.

I've been working on a tailpiece with variable length that I can add to this equation for testing purposes, but it is still in the Rube Goldberg stages. 'Probably have it ready for Oberlin.


j.

 

[robobass]

...On my own tailpieces, I enlarge the string eyelet hole so that you can just pop them in and out through the hole and don't have to completely unwind strings from the tuner shaft and pull them out of the tailpiece hole; 'just seems to make sense and I don't understand why they are not all made that way. Quick changes on a gig for a broken string go faster too!

Funny you mention the tailpiece with big holes; here is the one I use on the lightweight end of things, shown with a larger kevlar tailwire that I was testing out and no longer use:

You can take a lightweight one like this and progressively add metal C clamps to it or some other weight to test out the increased mass effects, but I generally feel like more mass of actual ebony or real wood is more realistic than a big chunk -o - hardware store metal.

j.

Yeah! Why are the keyholes too small on almost all TPs? I've always wondered about that. It's in the same class as "why is the center seatbelt receiver different than the side ones in the back seat of my car?"

On the adding mass issue, I agree that some big stove bolts probably don't imitate well the sound of a thicker piece of ebony. Funny that you've already made a TP that fits to my idea. You could always turn some tapered ebony plugs to stick into those holes though

 

[Daniel Baskin]

Which set of Spiros do you use? If you are using S42 4/4 Weich set, there are at least four other sets in progressively higher mass at both 3/4 (3885 set) and 4/4 (S42) at Weich, Mittel and Stark tensions that you might consider. More mass usually means more fundamental, and the added tension can change the tonal balance and response of the bass, although they might be a tad more difficult arco until you get used to drawing the heavier strings.

I'm using spirocore mittels. This is why I want a heavier tailpiece (for the easier arco). Would it make the arco easier?

I'm really interested in that idea of a really short, yet heavy tailpiece. Is it a good idea to have the string afterlength quite long (relatively)?

 

[iiipopes]

Daniel, the other guys can answer this better than I can. My understanding is that the "conventional wisdom" is to have an after length 1/6 of the speaking length of the mensure for optimum resonance. I think T-I recommends a slightly longer afterlength. But too long an afterlength is begging unwanted resonances and more wolf tones.

I don't think a more massive tailpiece will help with tone. It might help damp any afterlength wolf-tones. It sounds like you might just have a really bright bass.

Since you play S42 Mittels, Have you considered trying T-I 3/4 Superflexibles (T-I set #2887), with or without a Spiro E string? Rope core, a little easier arco, good pizz, similar tension, a little bit darker tone.

 

[bssist]

I'm not an arco guy, or a luthier or engineer, but my understanding is that more afterlength and/or more cable tailgut will allow more stretch giving an easier pull. Greater mass would dampen vibrations reducing the higher frequencies (exposing more fundamental. It seems to follow that a smaller tailpiece loaded with brass or lead, attached with a 3/32 wire rope would allow you to initiate string motion more easily.

The people who actually know about these things may be willing to shed some light if my assumptions are errant.

 

[robobass]

I'm not an arco guy, or a luthier or engineer, but my understanding is that more afterlength and/or more cable tailgut will allow more stretch giving an easier pull. Greater mass would dampen vibrations reducing the higher frequencies (exposing more fundamental. It seems to follow that a smaller tailpiece loaded with brass or lead, attached with a 3/32 wire rope would allow you to initiate string motion more easily.

The people who actually know about these things may be willing to shed some light if my assumptions are errant.

Very interesting. String and and tailgut elasticity seems like a subject that could and should be further studied. I imagine that sonic and "feel/action" effects of altering afterlength and tailgut length (and tailpiece length) would be rather slight when using Spiros and aircraft cable, since they both have very low elasticity, but when using gut strings and synthetic rope the effects might be huge.

As far as using a shorter TP that is doped with metal, you have to consider that the resonance of the bridge-to-saddle stretch is not just about mass, but how the mass is distributed and positioned over the length. It is certainly worth exploring, but seems like a big can o' worms. I imagine that doing something like this could create certain "sweetnesses" but at the expense of other things.

 

[james condino]

I'm not an arco guy, or a luthier or engineer, but .....

Well....I'm a bit of an arco guy, my dayjob is a luthier, and a lot of my education was in engineering, but...more than anything, every bass seems to have its own distinct personality...

 

[Daniel Baskin]

Since you play S42 Mittels, Have you considered trying T-I 3/4 Superflexibles (T-I set #2887), with or without a Spiro E string? Rope core, a little easier arco, good pizz, similar tension, a little bit darker tone.

I did use Superflexibles for the longest time. I love those strings. I made the switch to Sprios a couple years ago because I valued a better jazz and solo arco tone more than I valued orchestral bow-ability. I liked the tonal improvements. I am such a proponent of Superflexibles, but really, they are just darkened Spiros that bow better because they are "superflexible."

On a different note:

I've seen some basses that have an braided tailgut chord with the aim of increasing tailpiece flexibility--instead of having two parts of the tailgut extending out from the saddle. Would this help too? What is the ideal ratio of tailgut and string afterlength for string flexibility (arco pull-ability)? I know this last question is often irrelevant in light of the preference for just focusing on tuning the afterlength to 1/6, but I'm still interested in thinking in this direction.

 

[iiipopes]

I did use Superflexibles for the longest time. I love those strings.

Remember, they come in both 3/4 and 4/4 scale, with each set having a different tension (not necessarily lighter or heavier, but balanced differently), as well as solo. A mix-and-match (like changing out the heavy 3/4 D string for the 4/4 D string of the other set) and adding a Spiro Mittel E might be a good blended set.